Talk:Football records and statistics in England

Liverpool or Manchester United?

This may be biased since I am a United fan, but the you could argue all day between these two clubs and not get anywhere, but for me, Manchester United are the most consistent team, simply because Liverpool have never won the premier league, yet, United have always come in the top three since it started and have won 12 out of a possible 19! Now that has got to be something against the two extra champions league titles Liverpool have won. Just saying... 80.7.242.108 (talk) 13:49, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Relax it overall 19 > 18 titles. Since begining in 1888 of the league footaball. 157.157.39.241 (talk) 18:48, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Total titles

As noted above, ranking the clubs as "most succussful" based on the number of titles is suspect - the measure of success is subjective, and would take into consideration the relative prestige of each competition and possibly other factors. Obviously we are not in a position to make such judgements and any attempt to find a reliable means of quantifying success would likely yield various contradictory sources. Therefore I've changed the section title to give a more neutral description of what the table shows - titles won. I would suggest the default sorting method be reconsidered, with no weighting of the individual competitions (i.e. list equally ranked teams alphabetically), but for now I've just restored the existing method (which had been fiddled with). AJCham 23:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Well the change was reverted without addressing the above points, but I've informed the editor of this post and hopefully they'll chime in. It seems another editor did agree with the above and attempted to reinstate the change, but they too were reverted. I've really no interest in edit-warring about this, but would appreciate some feedback on this suggestion (incidentally, I see the default ordering was tampererd with again, so would also reiterate the suggestion of agreeing to default to alphabetical when the numbers are equal). AJCham 00:23, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi - I agree with you here. Wikipedia is not about interpreting who is the 'most successful'. By listing this as most titles, with all competitions included, we can leave it up to readers to decide which team is the most successful. Although I'm willing to hear other arguments, I have no qualms reverting someone who does not respond to comments on talk pages. --Pretty Green (talk) 09:00, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for making this change. I made similar edits to the Manchester United F.C. and Liverpool F.C. articles and noticed they both linked to a section that no longer existed. Mosmof (talk) 18:59, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Copied from above, originally posted by 196.210.213.248 :

To Pretty Green: It has always been "Most successful clubs overall" why are you changing it to total titles won? Is it because you would like you team higher on the log?

Yes, it's because my team, Barrow AFC (check the edit history) will rise higher and higher upon changing the table --Pretty Green (talk) 08:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Anon, please read the discussion and understand that this change (instigated by me) was made with careful consideration per my reasoning above, and two editors have joined the discussion in agreement. Neither yourself nor anyone else has put forward a sensible rationale for retaining the previous section heading - just allegations of bias and bad faith directed at both me and Pretty Green. At the time of my original edit the table defaulted to sorting by total titles - I didn't dispute this, and merely aimed for the title to reflect what was shown. I now see that the established ordering was to sort by league championships first, which frankly doesn't fit either title, and possibly makes the designation of "Most Successful" even more suspect. AJCham 21:12, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Split

Hello, I've suggested splitting this article. I think this article should be retained for overall records ie all football since 1871. We're not Sky, so I don't see why we should be giving undue prominence to football since 1992. However, I think the Premier League statistics are important content - but they deserve their own article. Therefore, I suggest splitting the section Football records in England#FA Premier League – Since 1992–93 season into a new article titled Premier League statistics and records. I'd also suggest merging All-time FA Premier League table into that article, and making it a new parent article for all the articles on the 'statistics and records' section of the Premier League template. Pretty Green (talk) 08:06, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

• Strongly agree, makes complete sense to me. Feudonym (talk) 08:15, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

  Well there's been no complaints anywhere so I'll be bold and get on with it! --Pretty Green (talk) 09:37, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

FA Cup records

I may be missing/misunderstanding something, but aren't these 2 lines contradictory?

• Highest FA Cup attendance (of all time): 121,919 (Aston Villa v. Sunderland, Final at Crystal Palace, 19 April 1913)
• Highest attendance at Wembley: 126,047 (Bolton Wanderers v. West Ham United, Final, 28 April 1923)

If that Wembley figure is correct, surely that#s also the biggest of all time?109.145.250.164 (talk) 01:02, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The bit on "Most consecutive games without defeat:" re. Chelsea in the FA Cup now needs updating since they lost to Man City in the 2012/13 semi-final by normal means, i.e. not a penalty shoot-out. Keowned (talk) 06:13, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

League Cup

No of goals scored in a normal final and no of goals scored in a penalty shootout are separate things, This is why the penalty shoot out record has to be noted separately. Any edits/ removal has to be done with consensus here. HasperHunter (talk) 19:20, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Personally I don't see how this is a noteworthy record. I'm not aware of any publication to have made a point of this record in any context, let alone in the limited scope of a league cup final (why not in any league cup game?). We could concoct any number of 'records' by combining criteria like this. Did you know that the highest scoring FA Cup final at Goodison Park finished 4-1? Does it matter that only two such matches were played? I mention this because the criteria for this record - League Cup finals decided by a shootout* - yields a field of only 3 games competing for the record. I think in order to keep this page from spiralling out of control we ought to have some standard to determine what constitutes a record worth mentioning.

*Yes, technically this record could be beaten by a match without a shootout, but realistically it is an unlikely scenario. AJCham 21:09, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, personally you may think a lot of things. Your personal views are not to be considered in wikipedia. Thats the record tally of goals scored and thinking penalty shootout goals is not noteworthy is violating WP:POV. Penalty shootout is as important as a draw or a 1-0 win or anything and this is a cup final score we are talking about here, not even a group match. I could say the same to remove biggest win too, because a win is a win in your words, no point to put biggest margin or smaller.HasperHunter (talk) 21:58, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, I am amazed how you are again pointing your own views saying its an unlikely scenario. There was a recent match with 8 goals involved. HasperHunter (talk) 22:00, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

This isn't about having my personal views in Wikipedia - I am not the one trying to add something to the article. The onus is on you you to provide evidence that this is a significant record. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, so if this article is to be justified we must have a means of discriminating important records from other stats, and our usual way is to refer to reliable sources.

I'm not sure you even understand our NPOV policy, but suffice to say that characterising 12-goal cup finals as unlikely, even if stated in an article rather than a talk page, wouldn't be close to an NPOV violation. Nor is omission of information where sufficient justification for its inclusion has not been forthcoming. Please provide a reference to indicate that a reliable source considers this record noteworthy. AJCham 23:11, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Records have never shown 'goals' scored as penalties in shoot-outs. No players records in their infoboxes carry info on penalties scored in shoot-outs. The FA Cup in this article does not have a record for goals scored which include penalties in shoot-outs. The League Cup details in this article carry no records which include penalty shoot-outs in games other than the final. A conclusion should be, as I believe is the norm in football records on Wiki, that penalty shoot-out goals simple don't count for record purposes and this spurious 'record' should go. --Egghead06 (talk) 08:55, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Really? Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel messis season records league, cup or any record includes penalties. I think you are slightly off track.HasperHunter (talk) 02:42, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Really? Their infoboxes show penalties scored in penalty shoot-outs??? They just are not notable for record purposes.--Egghead06 (talk) 06:49, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Record attendance for a League Two/Division 3/Fourth Division Fixture is 61,589 Bristol Roves Vs Shrewsbury Town League Two Playoff Final 2007. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.235.129 (talk) 19:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Most successful clubs overall

Should the "Most successful clubs overall" include the Fairs Cup? I see it here, the Italian page doesn't include it, and there is an edit war in the Spanish page including it and deleting it.--Coquidragon (talk) 21:07, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I notice that the Full members cup and the screensport super cup have been added.What is the consensus on this? I can just about understand the inclusion of the full members cup as it ran for a few seasons.I personally disagree with the inclusion of the Screensport as it was a one off competition which was played over two seasons then scrapped.Doesn't it open the door to all sorts of competitions? How about the county and regional cups won for example? They used to feature first teams.Where are we drawing the line? Thoughts please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.85.87.188 (talk) 15:48, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Since both were created due to the ban on English Clubs, I'll say to combine them in one same column. I don't think this would make a precedent for county or regional cups since both were national cups.--Coquidragon (talk) 16:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Screensport was played only for one season actually, but i think it should not be in a same column as the Full Members Cup. And i think they both are a must have, as both were official tournaments not of a friendly/exhibitional type. I even assume that both are major titles of much more significance than say the Community Shield or any other minor title/one game tournament. And both Super Cup and Full Members Cup are of much more significance than any lower league tournaments like the FL Trophy, or let's say the FA War Cup. So i think those must stay as they are, because both are a part of English Football History. Please let me have your thoughts on the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.133.0.122 (talk) 08:53, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

The screensport was indeed played for one season but the final of the competition was played in the following season to the rest of the competition so it was played over two seasons.As I recall there was very little interest in the competition before the final which was a merseyside derby.Attendences were low for most games.Personally I certainly would never describe it as a major trophy.It was scrapped through lack of interest after one season and only included the teams that would have played in europe that season but couldn't due to UEFA's ban on English clubs.I can see it being included as a competitive trophy but not major.I would place the full members cup above it as many more sides played in it and it ran for several seasons.However not all clubs entered it and for that reason I would call it competitive but not major. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhw99 (talk • contribs) 14:20, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Discrepency in the Most Games Without a Loss section

Here's what's written in the article:

Games without a loss

Most consecutive league games without a loss: 49, Arsenal (Premier League, 7 May 2003 to 24 October 2004) Most consecutive league games without a loss at home: 86, Chelsea (Premier League, 20 March 2004 to 26 October 2008) Most consecutive league games without a loss away: 27, Arsenal (Premier League, 5 April 2003 to 25 September 2004)

Now, look at the first and third. If Arsenal indeed went without a loss until the 24th of October, 2004, how is it possible that their away streak of games without a loss went on only till 25 September, 2004? Obviously, they lost a game after that, meaning their overall streak did not in fact continue until the 24th of October of the same year. 27.4.87.115 (talk) 17:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

You are correct, It should be fixed, if won't be fixed I will deal with it tomorrow.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 21:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Titles won (Table format)

What do you think of this? It is the format used for the parallel Spain and Italy articles.--Coquidragon (talk) 04:31, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Key

Domestic competitions organized by The FA
PL	Premier League, including previous Football League First Division
FAC	Football Association Challenge Cup
FLC	Football League Cup
FACS	Football Association Community Shield
European competitions organized by UEFA
ICFC	Inter-Cities Fairs Cup (Defunct) (Not organized by UEFA, but recognized as the official predecessor to the UEL and acknowledged by FIFA as an official trophy)
UCL	UEFA Champions League, former European Champion Clubs' Cup
UCWC	UEFA Cup Winners' Cup (Defunct)
UEL	UEFA Europa League, former UEFA Cup
USC	UEFA Super Cup
UIC	UEFA Intertoto Cup (Defunct)
IC	UEFA/CONMEBOL Intercontinental Cup (Defunct) (Predecessor to FCWC)
Intercontinental competition organized by FIFA
FCWC	FIFA Club World Cup

By Club

Team	The FA					UEFA							FIFA		Total
	PL	FAC	FLC	FACS	Total	ICFC	UCL	UCWC	UEL	USC	UIC	Total	IC	FCWC
Manchester United	19	11	4	19	53	0	3	1	–	1	-	5	1	1	60

I like it. Pretty Green (talk) 09:42, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Done.--Coquidragon (talk) 22:45, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Untitled 2012

The consecutive top flight seasons,Arsenal never got promoted therefore shouldn't count? 80.2.35.201 (talk) 12:49, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Fairs Cup

Re removal of this from stats tables - This is/was a trophy officially recognised by FIFA. What grounds are there for saying it is an unofficial trophy? --Egghead06 (talk) 12:28, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Classicfootball is not an official document. "Major honour" don't mean official. I'm sorry that English wikipedia has this huge mistake. Fortunately there are other ones that consider ICFC unofficial. --L'Eremita (talk) 07:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

This official document has all the competitions recognized by FIFA (last page). Where is ICFC? --L'Eremita (talk) 07:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

That document is completely useless for the point you are trying to make. It lists International tournaments such as World Cups and Olympics games. It does not list ANY domestic competitions. Based on that we should remove the Cup Winners Cup and The Champions League Etc????!!! --Egghead06 (talk) 08:20, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

The document shows the competitions directly recognized by FIFA (like the Club World Cup). Champions' League is indirectly recognized by FIFA, because UEFA recognized it. But UEFA didn't recognize ICFC! Neither FIFA (directly) nor UEFA (therefore FIFA indirectly) recognized ICFC, so ICFC is not official. --L'Eremita (talk) 11:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

May you explain me why the List of confederation and inter-confederation club competition winners says that ICFC is an unofficial competition? I'm not the only here that think that way. --L'Eremita (talk —Preceding undated comment added 11:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Nowhere in the lead to this article does it mention that competitions referenced in stats tables have to be recognised by FIFA, UEFA or anyone else but be that at it may we seem to disagree on whether FIFA acknowledge this as an official tournamment. They certainly acknowlege it here. I have raised it here to gain consensus - please add your views to a wider audience.--Egghead06 (talk) 12:02, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

As requested, I already added my comments to the Project Football page, but I wanted to ask L'Eremita, why do you want to exclude ICFC from the list? Nowhere in the article or the table does it say that ICFC is an official tournament. This table mentions mayor titles won by English teams. I don't think that its being unofficial by UEFA standards merits its exclusion, specially since there is already a label stating "Although not organized by UEFA, the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup is included here under UEFA as it is the official predecessor to the UEL." My opinion is as valid as yours. Thanks in advanced.--Coquidragon (talk) 14:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and rephrased "official" to state "major." Hope this ends the discussion.--Coquidragon (talk) 14:20, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Why not International Football Cup, then? It was the predecessor of Intertoto! --L'Eremita (talk) 12:06, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

First, I don't appreciate your addressing my question with another question. If you have something to say, just say it. We cannot have an intelligence exchange of ideas this way. Second, since you asked, the International Football Cup is not included because no English cup won it. Now, I ask that you remember that this article is not an isolated article about English football, but one in a series of articles of "Football records" for different countries and the Football records in Spain and Football records in Italy articles do include their ICFC. Besides, the only major European tournament won by an English team pre-UEFA was the ICFC. That is, unless you want to include the Sir Thomas Lipton Trophy won by a team, currently in 7th tier, the West Auckland Town F. C. Once again, since there are no other major tournaments excluded, why don't you want ICFC included? It was after all a major tournament and the official predecessor of the UEFA Cup (by official, I don't mean official tournament, but its official recognition by UEFA and FIFA as the predecessor to the UEFA Cup).--Coquidragon (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

IMHO these articles should include only official trophy (FIFA or UEFA). --L'Eremita (talk) 09:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Intertoto Cup victories

The UEFA Intertoto Cup was won only once by Aston Villa, such as Fulham, West Ham and Newcastle United. The last edition of Intertoto Cup (2008) was won only by Sporting Braga, according to UEFA. So Aston Villa has only one Intertoto Cup. Disgusto, 12 August 2013, 10:30 (UTC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Disgusto (talk • contribs)

Redirect

Premier League records redirects here and not to Premier League records and statistics. Someone should probably fix that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.55.220 (talk) 12:41, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

 Done.
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 13:05, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Longest run without scoring a point

• Longest League run without scoring a point: 41 (ongoing)
  • Woodford United from 9 April 2012 and currently still ongoing (see current Southern League Division One Central league table).

Removed this from the non-league section, as Woodford now have points, I'm not sure when from. The link given is also out of date, as they're no longer in that league (relegated). They're now in the United Counties League Div 1: http://full-time.thefa.com/ProcessPublicSelect.do?psSelectedSeason=190054943&Submit.x=9&Submit.y=7&Submit=Submit&psSelectedDivision=1001979&psSelectedCompetition=0&psSelectedLeague=1625657 86.132.183.123 (talk) 10:24, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Individual wins - leagues

in the league section, under individual, why is there no "individual wins" similar to the FA CUP section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.158.15.144 (talk) 16:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

References

Reference #9 no longer works — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.50.17.94 (talk) 05:28, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

All Seated Attendance

In the attendance section there should be a sub section to include records from 1994 when it was made mandatory for all top-flight clubs clubs to have all-seater stadia following the Taylor report. It should also include a record for the highest number of empty seats in a top-flight match. (Not including games behind closed doors or supporter restrictions).Angry Mustelid (talk) 21:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Attendance records - "at own stadium"

I get what this is trying to say, but both Maine Road and Wembley were Manchester United and Tottenham Hotspur's own stadium at the time - it's possibly irrelevant that they now play at Old Trafford and the New White Hart Lane. Should this just be one league record? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.147.142.229 (talk) 06:06, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Football Alliance

Should the Football Alliance be included in the list of discontinued competitions? It was a professional league that was inaugurated as a direct alternative to the Football League & ran between 1890-1892. It was intended at it's beginning to be a long-running competition in its' own right, before an agreed amalgamation with the Football League. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix D (talk • contribs) 08:43, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Consecutive wins in all competitions

My understanding is matches that end in a penalty shoot-out officially count as draws. Manchester City had two shoot-out wins during their run in 2017-18, so the club's press release about a 20-game winning streak is not accurate. I believe the record still belongs to Arsenal at 14 wins. It seems low, but I have not found any team with a longer streak. Source — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:1519:40DA:150A:DBCE:ADDA:AC95 (talk) 23:07, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Deletions

@DoctorHver Preston N.E 1888-89 until 1888-89 = 1year between titles. How is that possible, they won it again the following year? Preston in their entire history, have never gone 1 year between titles. Same for Portsmouth who also won back to back titles. Huddersfield Town won in 1924, 25, 26, never have they had a 1 year gap either. Sheffield Utd 1897/98 until 1897/98 = 125 years. How does that work? Same for West Brom, 1919/20 until N/A = 102yrs. Makes NO sense. Ipswich, Forest and Leicester are also unnecessary as all the stats are in the current column. Your edits make the table incorrect, with duplicated and erroneous totals.

“Others like Manchester United and Liverpool have never played outside of the top two divisions and thus are unlikely to ever complete the set.” Again unnecessary, the subject of all the clubs that have only played in two divisions are totally unrelated to the seven clubs who have played in all four divisions, winning three. Nothing to do with clubs who have only played in two or three, regardless of who they are. Its records, historical, not what could maybe happen in the future. I’ve reverted it back again, so it makes sense, again. I am not getting dragged down into a edit war over something so clear cut and trivial, I’ll leave it to the admins. Spare Koppers (talk) 13:17, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

clubs that won 3 championships

why isn't sunderland in list won 1st div ,2nd div and 3rd div 2A01:4C8:1407:DC5F:1:1:82C1:9639 (talk) 05:51, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Most red cards in a single match

Although initial reports said there were five red cards in the Exeter v Cambridge game in 2002, there were actually only four.

Here are the stats on Soccerbase

Here are a couple of references to the fact there was some confusion about how many players were sent off before it became clear that the referee only showed the red card on four occasions.

"The match report on Cambridge United's official web site confirms that Shane Tudor was the only United player to be sent-off following a brawl at the end of the game." "Many sources mistakenly stated that Tom Youngs was also shown a red card." "Furthermore, on appeal, Shane's red card was later rescinded."

"I must comment on referee Brian Curson after his first Burnley game. There is little I can say in defence of a referee who never gave the impression he knew what was going on."

"This season he has given out 97 yellow cards and 11 red cards in 34 games with 61 of those yellow cards going to away team players and 36 to home team players."

"Four of his eleven red cards not only came in one match but all four came in stoppage time at the end of the 3rd Division game between Exeter and Cambridge at St. James’ Park, won 2-1 by Cambridge."

"Exeter keeper Kevin Miller was rightly sent off in the first incident but then Glenn Cronin and Gareth Sheldon (both Exeter) and Shane Tudor (Cambridge) were all sent off as a free for all developed on the touchline. Curson seemed not to have a clue what was going on and there was some confusion as to who he had sent off."

"Both managers expressed concern at the way he had handled the game and Cambridge boss John Taylor appealed against Tudor’s red card, an appeal that was upheld. Taylor said at the time that the referee had finally seen some sense." 81.101.15.243 (talk) 03:44, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

References

All time top scorers

Can anyone explain the table here, it literally makes no sense. is it over a single season? if so what season? Firestar47 (talk) 23:06, 14 February 2024 (UTC)