Talk:Za dom spremni

Problems with the "Origins" section

1. The section produces no evidence of "Za dom" being ever used as a salute. All it offers are examples in which the word "za" is followed by "dom" as a part of a sentence, in various contexts.
2. It produces no evidence of the salute "Za dom spremni" being used before the 20th century (likely because there is none), and establishes no connection between the phrase "Za dom" and the 20th century salute.

I'm deleting the section in 10 days if there are no objections. GregorB (talk) 00:22, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

This is pretty much a real-world WP:SYNTH violation. We could even cite Croatian mainstream media about it - today's the Branimir Pofuk column in Večernji nicely contradicts the practice. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:03, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. It is almost an urban legend now - how "Za dom spremni" supposedly comes from the Zajc's opera - while there is in fact no such phrase in the libretto.

Wittgenstein said it best: the meaning of a word is its use in the language. So, in order to explain what "Za dom spremni" really means, one needs to enumerate when and how it has been used. And cut the confabulations, of course. GregorB (talk) 19:31, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't mentioned that Za dom spremni came from the Zajc Opera, you could find that in the earlier revisions of the article together with it's alleged usage in the 19th century, while now it clearly states that it was used by the Ustaše as their official salute. Many people even clamed that only Za poglavnika i dom spremni was the official salute of NDH and now there are enough sources that prove otherwise (especially in Zbornik dokumenata i podataka NOR-a which lists the NDH documents from 1941-1945). About the origins, Za dom was used in many songs from the 19th century (not just two or three) in various forms, mostly together with praising God or king, they were surely not just random mergings of the words za and dom. If you need more sources for something I can try to provide them, but for the part about Za dom spremni usage you are right, there is no evidence that it was used before the 20th century. (Tzowu (talk) 20:50, 24 November 2013 (UTC))

Agree about the opera - I was referring only to the prevalent "urban legend" and the recent court case mentioned in the article that unfortunately seems to strengthen it.

That the phrase "za dom" was established before 20th century is somewhat plausible, but none of the examples showcases it as a salute, catchphrase or slogan.

There was an interesting find in index.hr that provides a bit of additional insight. While the text says nothing one way or the other on the origin of the salute, the opening paragraph clearly identifies it as an "Ustasha salute", rather than a "Croatian salute".

BTW, to everyone who worked on the article recently (you know who you are :) ): good job. It wasn't exactly presentable two weeks ago. So, at least something good came out of the "Šimunić incident" after all... :) On the downside, hr wiki article unfortunately just went a bit astray. I might try to address it shortly, but I feel it's going to be an uphill battle. GregorB (talk) 00:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't know when Za dom started to be used as a salute, but it was definitely used before World War 2, one example can be found in Hrvatsko jedinstvo, year 1939, number 99, page 5 (bottom left)

Satovi tjelovježbe održavaju se svaki utorak i četvrtak u pola 9 sati na večer u prostorijama Jašione, ulica Pavla Radića i Đure Basaričeka broj 11, gdje se mogu ujedno i upisati novi članovi bez obzira na broj godina (kako je bilo prije pogriješno javljeno, da samo do 20 godina). Pozivamo dakle sve varaždinske intelektualce, studente, srednjoškolce, obrtnike,tr-govce, radnike i svu omladinu koja je voljna da se obnove tradicije i stare slave sjaj Hrvatske Sokolske Zupe Dr. Pere Magdića da se upišu u naš stijeg ˝Mla-dosti,˝ kako bi se i varaždinska hrvatska omladina našla u prvim redovima narodnog fronta, za bolju budućnost mile nam Hrvatske!

Uz naš pozdrav: ZA DOM!

Odbor mjesnog stijega

˝Mladost˝ Varaždin

(Tzowu (talk) 16:58, 25 November 2013 (UTC))

This is an excellent find, thanks! GregorB (talk) 17:31, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

I made some updates, it looks like Za dom i poglavnika was also used (although rarely) in 1941 Hrvatski branik, year 1941, number 51, page 2, and about the issues of Danica here is an example: [1]. I hope there are no more doubts about the reliability of the sources.(Tzowu (talk) 18:37, 25 November 2013 (UTC))

Phrase Za dom i narod Slavjanski appears on a gloriette presented to Jelačić commemorating events of 1848. Not sure that constitutes anything of significance, but I thought to post here and let others form an opinion. (see p.420, p.595 and a poor quality partial image here on p.10 - item 19b).--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:41, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Example in 1921

Virovitičan, July 3, 1921. A child at a school event recites a patriotic song:
Ne valja, braćo, zaboravit brata,
A pomoć brza vrijedi poput zlata
Za brata ginuli su uvjek baš Hrvati,
Za rod i dom spremni život dati!
It was local newspaper from Virovitica. This was published on page 2, upper right corner. If you read other stuff on the same page, you can see that there were Serbs present, that Serbian authors were also recited, that they are talking positive about prince Alexander who later become the tyrant and the main cause for Ustashe resistance. (Ustaše means those who stood up, i.e. rebels). Now, if kids were reciting such patriotic songs, and it was normal and common thing, what were adults doing? One can only imagine.
This few verses of the song are about not forgetting your brother (in this context your people, nation), saying that Croats always gave their life for their brothers, and ending in the last verse with readiness to give your life for your people and your homeland.--Zekoslavac (talk) 08:55, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

ZDS in songs after 1990 - translation needed

On Croatian Wikipedia I wrote a passage about "Za dom spremni" in songs after 1990. I kindly ask someone who understands well Croatian and who is fluent in English, to translate that passage. I think those informations throw a different light on the whole story and are also useful for discussion. Here is the link. --Zekoslavac (talk) 23:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

Biased, malicious and incorrect interpretations

Introduction

• was a salute used during World War II by the Ustaše movement - It was a salute, a shout, an ideal, an expression of patriotism, happiness because the Yugoslav (Serbian) occupation ended... It was used by the Ustasha movement but was also used outside of the Ustasha movement, accepted in the masses of people. It was not only used in World War II, but also before World War II, also inside and outside the Ustasha movement. It was used after WW2, mainly in Diaspora. From the very beginning of the war in Croatia in the 90s it was used in military units: in some as official salute, and in some as a frequent exclamation and motif. It appeared in numerous popular songs of that time, some of which are popular even today. After that, it was used during football matches for cheering, for many years, along with some other patriotic chants. To say that the salute was used by Ustasha during the Second World War creates a completely wrong impression because in overall history last 25 years are much more important for its usage than those 4 years of WW2 or a few pre-war years. It is very stupid, and totally inaccurate, to tie something like that to just 4 years of the Second World War, or worse - with the ideology of fascism and Nazism. --Zekoslavac (talk) 02:16, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
• It was the Ustaše equivalent of the fascist or Nazi salute "Sieg heil". No, it wasn't. In ustaše movement it was in use since 1932. Where were nazis and fascists in 1932? Where were Hitler and Mussolini in 1932 and what did Ustashe had to do with them? Even the Communist party supported Ustaše movement in 1932. This is your nazifascist far right? Until 1932 Ustaše officialy used "Dušmanima smrt - Hrvatskoj sloboda" (eng. Death to enemies - freedom to Croatia). That is very similar to yugoslav communist "Smrt fašizmu - sloboda narodu" (eng. Death to fascism - freedom to people). But communist came later with that salute, so it is possible that they just modified ustashe salute that originated before 1932. --Zekoslavac (talk) 02:16, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Biased sources: For this claim we are offered two sources. Article in Večernji list (eng. Evening paper / text in Croatian). Author is Ivica Kristović. He is currently employed on N1 television, and they are partners with CNN. N1 television has extreme left-liberal political views, and is known for nostalgia towards Yugoslavia and whitewashing yugoslav communism. Also, this is Kristović in 2012, with communist symbols, picture is public on his facebook (monument glorifying yugoslav partisans, which were Soviet puppets). Put 2 and 2 together. Article is mainly talking about what Ivan Zvonimir Čičak said. And he is moderate-left human rights activist, who had his share of anti Croatian propaganda in 90s, especially when Croatia introduced new money - kuna. Before that, kuna was used in Independent State of Croatia during WW2, and name was given by leader Ante Pavelić himself. So we have the same money as we did in 40s, same national anthem, and many other things, but we can't have "za dom spremni" because ustaše used it? Another source is article on portal Danas (eng. Today), which belongs to Net.hr (text in Croatian). I will not comment it, as Net.hr is extremly left and filled with pro-partisan, pro-yugoslav, and anti-Croatian propaganda. It is not considered relevant in Croatia. And the claim they are making about "ZDS" being equivalent to Nazi salute is false. So yes, you can find sources claiming that it is equivalent. And you can find some famous or important people making the same claim. Also you can find opposite opinions by other famous or important people. Common sense and facts say not only it is NOT equivalent, but also it has nothing to do with "sieg heil". Every army has it's salute. Every group fighting for some goal has it's salute. Using author's logic, we could say they are all equivalent to Sieg Heil. Meaning is different, context is different. Hope I explained it well. --Zekoslavac (talk) 02:16, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Yes, there is equivalent of "Za dom spremni": American medal from 1814 (text in Croatian, website belongs to a small society of historians and author of the article is historian Blanka Matković, leader of that society (sometimes spelled Matkovich)). Text on the medal in Latin: PRO PATRIA PARATUS AUT VINCERE AUT MORI (eng. For homeland ready to win or to die!). And there is a picture as well. This is the exact original meaning of Croatian "Za dom spremni", and is also an exact translation - Pro patria paratus = For homeland ready = Za dom spremni. Saying this is fascism is saying that Americans of 19th century are fascists. All of this is the same as Quintus Horatius Flaccus' verse: "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" (eng. it is sweet and proper (honorable) to die for homeland). And that verse is from 1st century B.C. (You can also find that verse carved in stone, on top of that big monument, Arlington cemetery). --Zekoslavac (talk) 02:16, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Usage during WW2

• During World War II, the Ustaše, a movement of radical Croatian nationalists and fascists, ruled the Axis puppet state Independent State of Croatia (1941-5)
  • they were not fascists. Ustaše movement was resistance movement. During Kingdom of Yugoslavia we had two resistance movements in Croatia. One was Ustaše movement, and the other was communist. Communists supported Ustaše at first, but didn't want to support their leader. They called him fascist, because he didn't want to confiscate property of Catholic Church and of rich people. Instead they gave their fellow communists task to try to lead Ustashe resistance and to lead masses in battle for ideals of communism and against Kingdom of Yugoslavia, which communists called "greater Serbian military fascistic dictatorship against nonserbian citizens" (sorry if my english is a bit bad, it's not my native). On the other side, Pavelić didn't want massive uprising, because it would only provoke Serbian authorities and people would die. He concentrated his efforts in small groups. There is no difference between Ustashe movement 1929-1941 and other resistance movements that fought the oppressors. Regarding fascism, they distanced themselves from fascism many times. Here is an article on that issue, with many quotes from memoirs by famous Ivan Meštrović. Meštrović was many things, but not a nationalist nor far-right. In fact, he was more pro-yugoslav than pro-croatian. And if he says that this is what ustashe leaders told him, I believe him. He had no reason to lie, and he could only get in trouble later in Yugoslavia for writing such things. --Zekoslavac (talk) 02:16, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Also, Independent State of Croatia wasn't "Axis puppet state". It was under heavy pressure from Hitler's Germany, but no puppet. And there are actually many moments that prove that exactly. Unfortunately, when no one is listening, it is difficult to prove that victors (who wrote the history) lied or misunderstood. There are good reasons why it was allied to Axis powers, but it wasn't ideology. To understand those reasons as well as nature of Ustashe movement, you have to understand Croatia's history 1918-1941, especially events of 1928 and 1929, and efforts of Croatian politicians and efforts of Western world to preserve Yugoslavia and not recognize Croatia. When you understand that, then Ustashe and communist movements are clear and very easy to understand. --Zekoslavac (talk) 02:16, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
  • In 1934 Ustashe movement issued a 5 KUNA coin. You can find pictures on the internet. On it's back side is written: "ZA NEZAVISNU DRŽAVU HRVATSKU" (eng. For Independent State of Croatia). Hitler agreed to Croatia's independence only about 2 weeks prior to 10th Apr 1941. Mussolini had his friendly treaties with Yugoslavia a few years after 1934. So I don't understand how exactly is Independent State of Croatia and fighting for it 1929-1941 expression of nazifascism, and why is anyone calling them fascists. If you are living under tyranny and want to liberate yourself, you are not a fascist. I am not saying they were sweet innocent wonderful guys (they did use some terrorist methods and had their share in cruelty, just like everyone else in Europe at that time), but most certainly they were not fascists. Ustashe movement had its members and supporters from all parts of society and political spectrum, members of various religions and beliefs (orthodox, jewish, catholic, muslim...), educated and non educated, various ethnicities, also they had their military wing, civil wing, political activists, so they were not just some bunch of armed people wanting to kill anyone who looks at them in a wrong way. And they had huge support in Diaspora, especially in both Americas, Australia... People had to leave because it was very difficult to live under yugoslav regime. Both royal and socialist. --Zekoslavac (talk) 02:16, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
  • suggestion: instead of "a movement of radical Croatian nationalists and fascists" you could write "Croatian national resistance and liberation movement" or something like that. It would be more precise and correct. And instead of "the Axis puppet state" you could write "the Axis-allied state" and let other articles on Wikipedia argue about the nature of that state. This way it looks biased. Remember, we are talking about still unresolved history, which will probably be resolved to some degree in further years. Things are moving forward here in Croatia, but very slowly. --Zekoslavac (talk) 02:16, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Modern usage There are many things here, but I don't have time to address them all. Maybe later. For now, only what I really can't believe that someone wrote.

• controversial far-right writer Josip Pecaric - why controversial and why far-right? He is neither of that. And never was. If you happen to have a brilliant mathematical mind, and you dismantle extreme leftist pro-yugoslav and anti-croatian propaganda, they call you "far-right" and "controversial"? Well, please, show us all some of his controversies! What must one do to get that title - "controversial"? And what must one write to be called "far right writer"? Can you quote something that would prove that this person has far-right views and is controversial? OK, Pečarić is pro-croatian, he is also catholic like 85% people in Croatia, he supports war veterans, often dismantles proyugoslav and anticroatian propaganda made by ex communists, he is very sharp but always with good arguments, he loves his country and his people... but how does that make him far-right or controversial? Are you saying that good leftist is atheist, hates his country or people, works against his country and spreads fake propaganda, and has no arguments for his claims? Because that would be opposite of what you call far-right. You would be saying that far-right means to be normal, and far-left to be traitor or simply stupid. And I doubt you wanted to say that (you = whoever wrote that part). --Zekoslavac (talk) 02:16, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
• Its presentation on public premises was rejected by Tisno local authorities. - This is completely irrelevant. That was the decision of a local politician from a very small place in Croatia. As it is written in the text, it looks like something big and significant. In reality, not so. The presentation was held but not in the property owned by the city. Because of political views of single local politician. There is nothing controversial in the book. It is a group of articles that have been publicly available, and Pečarić's comments on those texts, opinions, interpretations... But nothing controversial. --Zekoslavac (talk) 02:16, 25 June 2018 (UTC)