Talk:Tian Gang

Untitled

The {{POV}} tag here resulted from an OTRS email request. The complaint was: POV problem with possibly undue weight being given to a "controversy" section. Mangojuice^talk 14:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Recent Move

I believe the recent move (from "Gang Tian" to "Tian Gang") was a bad idea. The bulk of Professor Tian's academic work uses American naming conventions, and that is how he is most commonly known (this is standard for Chinese mathematicians working in America). I think the move should be reversed; a similar discussion is happening over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics.RayAYang (talk) 21:49, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but I won't move-war over it. Formal resolution could go through WP:RM, but I'm too lazy to do so right now. Kusma (talk) 12:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

His MIT web page says "Gang Tian", and I remember that when I was at MIT, that's how his name appeared on his office door. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:NC-CHINA says:

"There is an exemption for people whose Chinese name is familiar but with English ordering (for example, Wen Ho Lee). In this case, the primary entry should be under the English ordering with a redirect from the Chinese ordering."

Also, WP:NAME says:

"Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."

I have no reason to disbelieve M. Hardy, a long established user. So it seems to me that if Tian uses the English name order in public and in his publications, it should also be used on Wikipedia. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:01, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

A person's name belongs to him, not to the country or culture associated with his birth or ethnicity. It is evident from the discussion at WT:WPM#Gang Tian or Tian Gang that Gang Tian has chosen to use this (American-style) ordering for his name. We should respect that choice and use it as the name of this article. JRSpriggs (talk) 00:31, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Nobody ever refers in English to Gang Tian as Tian Gang. So the move is just wrong. --C S (talk) 00:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, fellows. I didn't see this discussion here. If you regard Gang Tian as a Chinese-born, American scientist, there's no problem that the name adopts English order. Just want to point out that Chinese scientists writing their names in English order in their publications is a natural thing. Because the majority of prestigious scientific journals are published in English and outside China, and they need to abide by English rules. Plus, it avoids people call them Mr. Given Name. If you argue the names in Wiki should follow their appearance on scientific journals, then how about other Chinese scientists? There're already hundreds of them existing in Wiki, and their names all start with surnames. I believe when they publish on English journals, they put their given name first. And I believe their most significant work was published on English journals, and western reader knew their names by English order. So shall we convert all those names? It's gonna be a lot of work. Ramtears (talk) 01:47, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the fundamental question is, how is Tian best known to English speakers. If he has adopted the American-style name order while in the the United States, to the point where that is the way he is most well known, then the naming conventions seem to say that is the way his article should be named. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:16, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The rule is this. If a person lives and works in English speaking country, he/she should be referred by his English name, including order. In this case, I presume he has never published in a Chinese Journal, and is completely unknown to the general public in China. Even if he was known in China, or had worked in China, he would have used his name in Chinese characters, and the Chinese wikipedia could/would/does spell his name in the correct chinese order. Reminds me of when a greek TV station called Schwarznegger an "Austrian" actor. Kotika98 (talk) 13:42, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Professor Tian current affiliation

What's the current affiliation of Professor Tian?It seems he works full-time for Princeton and Part-time for Peking University,right?Rezameyqani (talk) 10:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 3 April 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) B dash (talk) 10:18, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

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Tian Gang → Gang Tian – Virtually all the references cited use Western name order (as is customary for modern era mathematicians that have published in Western journals). There have been several moves in both directions before, all without prior discussion, so maybe we should discuss this to settle it. Note the talk page discussion from 2008 where consensus is also on the side of Western naming order. —Kusma (t·c) 19:19, 3 April 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. B dash (talk) 00:09, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Tian Gang is a Chinese mathematician human being. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:38, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

  In ictu oculi, that is the reason for the nomination, so I do not understand your oppose. Chinese mathematicians are usually (almost universally) written in Western name order, just like politicians are almost universally written in Chinese order (with a few semi-exceptions like H. H. Kung). Note that Shing-Tung Yau, Shiing-Shen Chern, Weinan E, Qiang Du, Guofang Wei, Zhongwei Shen, Pengfei Guan, Kefeng Liu etc. are all Chinese mathematicians written in Western name order, conforming to the standard exception in WP:ZHNAME. —Kusma (t·c) 09:09, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Then the other Chinese mathematicians articles should all be corrected. Since when are mathematicians a different class of human? Or is it that western maths readers are incapable of understanding what all other English speakers understand, that mainland Chinese names start with surname. When were math students exempted from this usage? :( In ictu oculi (talk) 13:11, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

For all articles, we use the most common form of their name in reliable English sources if they exist. For mathematicians, that can mean reversing their names. Hungarians get the same treatment as Chinese: Paul Erdős and John von Neumann are not at Erdős Pál and Neumann János either. —Kusma (t·c) 15:04, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Actually articles for most mathematicians based in China use the Chinese name order, see Chen Jingrun, Hua Luogeng, Feng Kang, Yang Le, Lu Jiaxi (mathematician), and many others. The examples you used above are mostly for people who have settled in the West. Hungarians (and Bavarians too) are different, as they're highly influenced by the rest of Europe which surrounds them. Note that in 2008, Tian was based in the US and it was correct to use the Western name order, but he has now moved back to China and become involved in politics. -Zanhe (talk) 19:53, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

I have advertised this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics. —Kusma (t·c) 07:33, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

• Strong support per all his publications and academic references: https://dof.princeton.edu/about/clerk-faculty/emeritus/gang-tian. Chinese researchers almost universally adopt the Western name order in academic circles outside China, no problem with that. Neodop (talk) 15:22, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

We should certainly use the Western name order if he were still at Princeton. The thing is, he has now returned to China, become VP of Peking University, and got involved in politics (VP of the China Democratic League). In these circles people almost exclusively use the native name order. -Zanhe (talk) 20:27, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. He uses the western name order in his publications, on his MIT web page, on his Princeton web page, etc. COMMONNAME is policy, and therefore overrides ZHNAME. "We must treat all Chinese people in a separate way than everyone else" is not policy, not a guideline, and not a good idea; it would open a huge can of worms for who should count as Chinese for the purposes of this separate treatment. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:16, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose – the long-held convention is to use native name order for Chinese people based in China, and to use Western name order for those who settled in the West. Tian had a long career in the US, where he used the Western name order as pointed out above, but he has now moved back to China and took up high academic and political posts such as VP of Peking University, CAS academician, VP of the China Democratic League, and member of the CPPCC, and people holding similar posts almost always use the Chinese name order. In any case, most academic publications use the format "Surname, Given name", which is essentially name order agnostic. -Zanhe (talk) 19:12, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
  • It is false that "most academic publications" use "last, first" order. For the official journal published versions of his most recent three papers I see author lists "Yuguang Shi, Jiacheng Sun, Gang Tian, Dongyi Wei", "Aaron Naber / Gang Tian", and "Gang Tian / Guangbo Xu". Citations by others to these works often use last-first order, but that's a different thing than how he writes his own name on his own publications. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:23, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

I was going to edit my post to say "citations in most academic publication", but you replied too fast. You're right, scientific publications routinely use the Western name order regardless of people's origins (except in citations), which is contrary to the practice in general-purpose media (you'll never see things like "Jinping Xi", "Xiaoping Deng" or "Zedong Mao" in respectable publications, for example). As Wikipedia is a general-purpose encyclopedia, I believe it should follow the general convention in this matter. -Zanhe (talk) 19:44, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

The general convention includes that people's names do not suddenly change when they move from the USA to China. Manifold Destiny, one of the more notable publications mentioning 田刚, uses "Gang Tian", like virtually all mainstream media publications about him. The only counterexamples we have of English-language publications using "Tian Gang" have appeared in China. —Kusma (t·c) 19:26, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

We shouldn't discount English-language publications from China though, and they have particular weight in this case because most non-research publications about him from the last decade fall into this category (maybe even among research publications as well). — MarkH21 (talk) 22:59, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose By WP:ZHNAME, it is standard practice in English to also present the family name first and using the English ordering is an exception. Therefore, there must be convincing evidence to use the English ordering. Yes, most major mathematics publications use (given name, family name) ordering regardless of author origin. However, this is largely for standardization (as well as historical / geographical reasons). Yes, there is a case for many Chinese mathematicians who have spent most of their academic careers in the Western world to count as these exceptions (indeed for most of most well-known Chinese mathematicians from the last half-century), but I do not think that this is one such case. Tian has spent much of his career in China and a significant portion of his activity is there. It is also important to note that many English-language publications in China use "Tian Gang" when referring to him (and also use this order for other people coming from countries using the same order, e.g. Japan, South Korea): Nature Index (written by Peking University), Beijing Normal University, Capital Normal University, Yenching Academy of Peking University. — MarkH21 (talk) 20:33, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

  So would you support moving NYU professor Lin Fanghua to Fanghua Lin or to the form Fang-Hua Lin that he uses on his own website? —Kusma (t·c) 19:26, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

  Given that there isn't as much English-language coverage of him outside of research publications, it would be fine to have it in (given name, family name) order. His website lists himself as Fang-Hua Lin, his CV lists himself has Fang Hua Lin, and most of his publications are split between Fang-Hua Lin and Fanghua Lin. It would really just be a counting measure.

  I also don't feel particularly strongly about this in general because the Chinese name template makes the actual family name fairly clear and redirects will send readers to the correct article regardless of which the readers look up. I personally think that the articles should always be named in (family name, given name) order for people from nations using this ordering unless there is clear evidence for their own preference and/or for them being known predominantly, within English-language publications, in the other ordering (e.g. Paul Erdős). But that's more or less what WP:ZHNAME says. It's essentially an issue of controlling WP:BIAS while also following WP:COMMONNAME. — MarkH21 (talk) 22:59, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

• This is off-topic, but I would support moving Lin Fanghua to Fang-Hua Lin. -Zanhe (talk) 00:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per User:Zanhe's comment on WP:ZHNAME. —  AjaxSmack  01:35, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.