Talk:Gangnam

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 13:17, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

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Teheran Valley in Gangnam

• ... that between 1963 and 1979, the price of land in the Gangnam region (pictured) of Seoul increased nearly 1000 times? "The price of land soared: for example, in Gangbuk (the old urban center) the price of land increased by nearly 25 times, and in newly developed Gangnam it increased by nearly 1000 times." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264275120314219 The source also shows the years in a table.
  • ALT1: ... that the rapid development of the Gangnam region (pictured) of Seoul was spurred by the 1968 North Korean assassination attempt on military dictator Park Chung-hee? "Concern over an invasion by North Korea was another motivation for Gangnam's development. Back in the 1960s, Korea was concerned about a possible reinvasion by North Korea. Gangbuk was more vulnerable, being only around 40 kilometers (25 miles) away from the demarcation line between South and North Korea that was created in 1953. The Blue House raid, launched by North Korean commandos to assassinate President Park Chung Hee in 1968, awoke the authorities to the need to disperse the population and public agencies further away from the demarcation line." https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2023/02/11/why/korea-gangnam-development/20230211070009412.html and further elaborated in page 68 of https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7591/j.ctv1xp9pw7.9 "In the event of an invasion by North Korea, which had always been a keen concern of the military government in South Korea, having three million people concentrated on the north side of the Han River would be a liability. This concern was heightened by a North Korean commando attack on the presidential palace in an attempted assassination of President Park Chung Hee in 1968."
  • ALT2: ... that the Hyundai Motor Group, the Samsung Group, the GS Group, the Lotte Corporation, and the LG Corporation are all headquartered in the Gangnam region (pictured) of Seoul? Hyundai: https://www.hyundai.com/worldwide/en/onepage/country , Samsung: https://pulsenews.co.kr/view.php?year=2016&no=140836 , GS: https://www.gs.co.kr/en/about-gs , Lotte: https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/company/LTTZF:US , LG: https://www.lg.com/global/careers/workplaces/ajax/workplaces-get
  • Reviewed:

Created by Freedom4U (talk). Self-nominated at 04:54, 27 February 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Gangnam (Seoul); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• for some reason the DYK tool bugged out while writing this and deleted my first two DYKs, I've re-added them now Freedom4U (talk) 04:56, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing: - just a question
• Neutral:
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: @Freedom4U: Good article. Though, should "The music video was filmed in the Gangnam District and featured the ASEM Tower and the Trade Tower. The 2015 action film Gangnam Blues followed the real estate development of the Gangnam area." be cited? other than that everything seems good. AGF on Korean sources. Onegreatjoke (talk) 20:45, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

• @Onegreatjoke: Huh I actually rephrased the first part from the Gangnam District article, but I didn't do it correctly because their source There's no Gangnam in Gangnam Style didn't actually say that... I've gone ahead and rephrased the sentence to better match the source. I've also added a source for the Gangnam Blues sentence now. Freedom4U (talk) 00:02, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Approve. Onegreatjoke (talk) 18:14, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

"East of Yeongdong"

@Goszei Hi, this I'm bringing this up per WP:BRD. I've seen that you've added a link to Yeongdeungpo District. I believe this is an error, as while Yeongdeungpo District is in the same general area as the historical region of Yeongdeungpo, it is not the same entity, and I believe adding a link to the modern-day administrative district is misleading. Feel free to discuss if you disagree, otherwise I have reverted that Wikilink. Cheers! :3 F4U (they/it) 08:46, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 20 April 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 15:39, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

---

• Gangnam (Seoul) → Gangnam
• Gangnam → Gangnam (disambiguation)

– Per sources below, "Gangnam" most commonly is used to refer to the cultural region, while "Gangnam-gu"/"Gangnam District" is used to refer to the specific administrative district. Kangnam County, Kangnam Mountains, and Kangnam (singer) all have natural disambiguation through their MR-spelling (and are unambiguously not the primary topic). As well, the distinction of "District" (and the redirect Gangnam-gu) provides natural disambiguation for Gangnam District.

• "It was not until I became more familiar with Seoul that I realized that 'Kangnam' had two broader connotations. The broadest encompasses all the districts south of the Han. A slightly more restrictive but more common use of the term referred to multiple, recently developed ku south of the Han, not just Kangnam-gu, which were associated with modern high-rise apartment complexes and the new middle class." (Lett 1998, p. 102)
• "While Gangnam can be defined in different ways–from the narrowest, limited to just the administrative district of Gangnam-gu itself, to the broadest, which would encompass the whole area south of the Han River – I follow the conventional and common definition of Gangnam as an area composed of the three administrative units of Gangnam-gu, Seocho-gu, and Songpa-gu." (Yang 2018, p. 3408)

It's also worth noting that the disambiguation page predates the Gangnam (Seoul) article by 17 years. :3 F4U (they/it) 19:14, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Support. The parenthetical doesn't add much, because Gangnam District is also in Seoul. SilverLocust (talk) 00:06, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 06:36, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Gangnam/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Praseodymium-141 (talk · contribs) 11:49, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

@Praseodymium-141 Hi, any updates? :3 F4U (they/it) 05:02, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the very long delay, I'll probably get to this later today. ¹⁴¹Pr {contribs} 07:29, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Is it possible if we could pass this review onto someone else? I have really important matters going on in real life. Sorry! ¹⁴¹Pr {contribs} 15:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

@Praseodymium-141 That's alright :) I've pushed the "ask 2nd opinion" button. :3 F4U (they/it) 17:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

---

Article seems fine from a glance. I'll review it later.

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

   b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a. (reference section):

   b. (citations to reliable sources):

   c. (OR):

   d. (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a. (major aspects):

   b. (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

   b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Gangnam/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: AryKun (talk · contribs) 12:39, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

• Will do. AryKun (talk) 12:39, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

• You don’t need the references in the lead.
  • The reference is for the region historically being called Yeongdong, which is not mentioned in the body of the article and reasonably qualifies as a "basic fact" under WP:LEAD.
    • I meant the reference about it being one of the most expensive retail markets in the world.
• For the footnote in the lead, you don’t need the excerpts; they actually seem like part of the lead, not additional citations, Split them off into another footnote and move them down into the body.
  • Not quite sure what you mean here, but I've duplicated the footnote in the body as well.
    • I meant you don't need the excerpts from the books in the note, see this diff for a mock-up.
• The lead currently only covers the history and geography of the region; there’s nothing about the economy, arts, culture, and politics, which are what I’d argue it’s better known for internationally.
  • God I had an edit for it and then my computer decided to shut down 😭 I'll get started on redoing my work, but I'm just really frustrated about that because I had such a good edit almost ready. :3 F4U (they/it) 13:46, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
• “in counterpoint” does not seem like the correct word, maybe in contrast instead?
  • Counterpoint is the correct word here. Counterpoint here means "in comparison to", "in contrast to", and "in juxt aposition to" all at once. [1] It's the phrasing the source used and its not an uncommon one. [2]
• Are all three mountains part of some greater mountain range that can Ben mentioned instead, or they just three individual mountains that happen to be close together?
  • Just close together. Seoul has a lot of mountains.
• “overly concerned over” should be “overly concerned with”
  • Corrected.
• Chaebol should be in a Lang template
  • I've italicized the term, but why would it need to be in a lang template?
    • Apparently the template you're supposed use in this case in Transliteration, not lang. I've added the former.
      • I strongly disagree with adding the template. This is a pretty commonly used English-language word now. You can find this word in plenty of prestigious English-language dictionaries including Cambridge, Merriam-Webster, Collins, Oxford, etc. :3 F4U (they/it) 13:46, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
• “buildings are found ” should be “is found”
  • Rephrased the sentence.
• “as of 2011” no statistics that are more recent?
  • No, I haven't been able to find anything more recent. It's not from census data, as far as I can tell. I believe the museum came up with the estimate themselves. I've checked the South Korean atlas, with no results.
• “and exemptions to promote“ exemptions from what?
  • Whoops, meant to write tax exemptions.
• Images are used well and properly licensed.
• You could add images to the Education and Transportation sections.
  • The representative Gangnam station only has stuff like File:Gangnam-station-entrance-12-20181121-143234.jpg, which don't provide a clear benefit to the article if included. As for schools, what would really work would be a picture of some of the hagwons in Gangnam, but I did a pretty comprehensive search about 6 months ago to no avail. It would not benefit the article to include the picture of a single school.
    • It's better than having no photo, and we have photos of most of the prestigious schools you mention in the text, so it's not like we don't have options.
      • I don't agree and I think an image like that fails to be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. (MOS:IMAGES) :3 F4U (they/it) 13:46, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
• The image in politics does help illustrate the divide between Gangnam answers the rest of Seoul, but is less helpful without the caption explaining who’s the conservative candidate and who’s the liberal candidate.
  • Added the party names and also removed the yellow as per WP:CAPTIONOBVIOUS
• Some initial comments, will review further later. AryKun (talk) 03:46, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Further comments

• I have performed a full copy-edit of the article, implementing changes that I felt would be uncontroversial. Feel free to discuss any that you might disagree with.
• "government implemented various economic" maybe "announced various" would sound better.
• "nearly 1000 times" sounds like they increased on one thousand separate occasion, maybe "thousand-fold" and "twenty-five-fold" would be better.
• "to regain their reputations" How exactly would switching their locations improve the reputations of these schools? If high school entrance exams had been abolished, just moving to Gangnam wouldn't do much for their reputations.
• "received considerable pushback from the central government" Why?
• "Following the relocation of the Supreme Court of Korea" when did this happen?
• "1 billion won" How much is this to people unfamiliar with the value of a won?
• "residents chastising other parts" How can you chastise a place? Denigrate would be better here.
• "수입차 하이웨이" Romanization?
• "1995 Seoul Statistical Yearbook" Nothing more recent?
• "The region is...population boom" The clauses on either side of the em-dash don't fit grammatically with each other, needs rewording.
• "and the end of the South Korean ban on private tutoring" The end of the ban doesn't seem like it would be a reason for the concentration of hagwons in that area specifically.
• "with the vast majority of residents having at least a bachelor's degree" Repetitive and needs actual percentages.
• "opened the Jamsu Bridge in 1976, and excavated the Third Namsan Tunnel in May 1978" were both of these also built to promote use of the bus terminal?
• "The stations between the Sports Complex station and the Seoul National University of Education station" You don't actually mention which stations opened between these two.
• In the see also, Education in South Korea and Fashion in South Korea seem like articles that are too broad to be related too closely to this article.

References

• I have changed the sectioning to a more standard format per MOS:REFERENCES.
  • This reference system is fine and is used elsewhere. See the Featured article Why Marx Was Right for an example. :3 F4U (they/it) 14:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

  That article has completely separated the citations (in the sfn format) and the works it cites. It makes less sense when there are ful references IN the citations, like we have for this article. Then the works we're splitting aside as "References" and the ones we just cite directly in "Citations" are split somewhat arbitrarily. AryKun (talk) 14:24, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• All sources seem to be reliable and most are correctly formatted. Citations to primary sources are used appropriately for basic factual information about the subject.
• Son, Ji-hyoung; Jie, Ye-eun; Byun, Hye-jin (November 18, 2021). "Gangnam fantasy: Land of longing". The Korea Herald. Has formatting errors.
  • Fixed, though this is outside the GA criteria
• Song, Sung-hoon (February 22, 2016). "Samsung Electronics leaves Seoul headquarters". Pulse. Maeil Business Newspaper. Actually states that Samsung is leaving its Gangnam headquarters, you need to amend the sentence mentioning headquarters to reflect this.
  • It does not, actually. It states that Samsung Electronics is leaving its Seoul headquarters, but states that the Samsung Group will stay in Gangnam. Korean chaebols are confusing haha :3 F4U (they/it) 14:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

  My bad, forgot that Samsung makes stuff other than electronics for a moment. AryKun (talk) 14:24, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• Spot-checks:
  • 김, 영필 (November 26, 2021). "바이든은 '강남 좌파?'…수백억대 저택서 연휴" [Is Biden a "Gangnam Leftist?"...Holidays in multi-million dollar mansions]. Seoul Economic Daily. Verifies all claims made.
  • "Hyundai Korea". Hyundai Motor Company. Verifies all claims made.
  • Marshall, Colin (August 15, 2022). "The door opened by 'Gangnam Style'". The New Yorker. Verifies all claims made.
  • "A darker past in 'Gangnam 1970'". The Korea Herald. Verifies all claims made, but I have tweaked the article bit to better reflect what the movie is about.
  • Kang, Hyun-kyung (July 28, 2019). "Megachurches in Korea: Why they face calls to be born again". The Korea Times. Verifies all claims made.
  • Kim, Minjeoung (June 1, 2011). "Deux Séoul, Gangnam et Gangbuk"[Two Seouls, Gangnam and Gangbuk]. Hérodote (in French). Verifies all claims made.
  • Jin, Min-ji (February 11, 2023). "How did Gangnam become the Seoul epicenter it is today?". Korea JoongAng Daily. Verifies all claims made.

• That's all I have. AryKun (talk) 16:04, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

  Courtesy ping Freedom4U. AryKun (talk) 16:36, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

  FYI, I see you've been replying to some of my replies- I haven't saved any of them yet, so you won't be able to see the changes yet. :3 F4U (they/it) 14:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

  Freedom4U, any update? AryKun (talk) 14:49, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  @AryKun Sorry for the lack of updates, I just got back from a 4-day trip. I'll be able to get this done by Friday if that's good with you ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 12:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yeah, sure, no problem. AryKun (talk) 13:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Freedom4U, I'll hold this for another week, but will fail by next weekend if there isn'y any more progress on the issues raised. AryKun (talk) 15:31, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

  Freedom4U, another reminder. AryKun (talk) 15:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you! I'm really sorry about the delay, I have a lot of irl stuff getting in the way atm, but I will be working on it and get it in by Friday. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 15:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

  Freedom4U, final reminder. I'm loath to fail this but there hasn't been any significant work on the article in nearly three weeks. AryKun (talk) 13:05, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

  @AryKun I'm sorry, but I think it would be better off to fail this now and for me to renominate it later once I have more time to improve it. I have a lot of things going on irl right now and I just wouldn't be able to do justice to the article right now. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 21:48, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

  Alright, I'll fail it. AryKun (talk) 10:25, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Please do not delete my objective editing

Korean Dictionary by Korea University: Gangnam - the area south of the Han River in Seoul. In terms of administrative districts, it mainly refers to Seocho-gu and Gangnam-gu. (고려대한국어대사전: 강남 - 서울의 한강 이남 지역. 행정 구역상 주로 서초구와 강남구를 이른다.) [3] Oakwoodic (talk) 17:15, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't see the second tab for the Korea University Dictionary in the Naver entry, sorry about that. Anyways, there's still two issues here:

• Firstly, there's no source supporting your stretch of a claim in edit that Gangnam as a region is defined by the boundaries of the school district--the consensus among reliable sources seems to be clear that it's a colloquial/cultural region.
• Secondly, the more limited dictionary definition you've provided here contradicts most of the usage of "Gangnam" among other reliable sources, in particular the ones cited by the rest of the article. It's not appropriate to add it as the authoritative definition, but I do think it's absolutely appropriate to add it as an alternative definition.

~ F4U (talk • they/it) 00:45, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Seeing no objection, I've changed the wording to describe it as an alternative definition. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 17:03, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

The term "Gangnam" typically refers to the commercial areas surrounding Gangnam Highway and Gangnam Station, or the region around the Gangnam Eighth School District. This generally encompasses only two districts due to administrative reasons: Gangnam District and Seocho District. The western side of the main commercial zones in Gangnam, which include areas around key subway stations like Gangnam Station, Sinsa Station, Nonhyeon Station, and Sinnonhyeon Station, lacks physical boundaries and is entirely managed by Seocho District. Seocho District was established in 1988 following its separation from Gangnam District, and it remains closely linked to Gangnam District in terms of administration, geography, society, and economy. The name "Seocho District" itself was derived from Seocho-dong, where Gangnam Station is located, a name originally under the jurisdiction of Gangnam District. Thus, the name "Gangnam" is effectively shared between Gangnam District and Seocho District. Songpa District, separated from Gangdong District in 1988, is often referred to as part of the "Gangnam Three Districts" in real estate and media reports. However, it does not share administrative ties with Gangnam District and Seocho District. https://www.gangnam.go.kr/contents/history/1/view.do?mid=ID06_040405

Songpa District claims to be one of the "Gangnam Three Districts," but this is primarily the perspective of those residing in Songpa District. The natives of Gangnam District, however, do not consider people from Songpa District as part of their community. The schools, transportation, and all administrative aspects are different in Songpa, which belongs to the Gangdong school district. https://www.songpa.go.kr/www/contents.do?key=2364

Please check this Gangdong Songpa district office of Education http://gdspedu.sen.go.kr/ and Gangnam Seocho district office of Education https://gnscedu.sen.go.kr/. Thanks Oakwoodic (talk) 00:54, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

It's almost unthinkable to say "Let's go to Gangnam" when referring to going to Lotte Tower in Jamsil, Songpa District, or when visiting Songpa District. All the key commercial areas of Gangnam are concentrated in Gangnam District and Seocho District. When heading to Gangnam-daero in Seocho District, people commonly say "Let's go to Gangnam." Even though schools and academies originating from Gangnam include those in Seocho District, Songpa District is considered part of the Gangdong 6th School District and is not regarded as part of Gangnam for schools and academies in Korea.

The high school district system in Seoul underwent partial changes in 1998. Originally comprising nine districts spread across two to five boroughs, it was reorganized into eleven districts based on the jurisdiction areas of the regional education offices, each covering two to three boroughs. This reorganization established the eleven-district system. The jurisdiction of the Gangnam District Office of Education includes Gangnam District and Seocho District. The 6th School District comprises Gangdong District and Songpa District, and the 8th School District includes Gangnam District and Seocho District. - Source: Digital Encyclopedia of Gangnam District Culture - 8th School District.

https://m.terms.naver.com/entry.naver?docId=2573392&cid=51878&categoryId=51957 Oakwoodic (talk) 01:11, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

@Oakwoodic This speculation does not appear to be backed by secondary sourcing. Please see the Wikipedia policy on Original Research. This edit, in particular is not backed by secondary sources and removes well-referenced content. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 19:11, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

@Oakwoodic I'm sorry about the revert, I missed that there were new sources in your newest edit. There are still several issues with your edit, including the fact that most of the claims in the edit are not supported by their sources:

1. Firstly which is separated by Tancheon is unnecessary and referenced only to a dictionary definition of Tancheon. This does not reflect the due weight necessary as no reference actually points that out.
2. The 'grandculture.net' source does not support the claim that The term "Gangnam" typically refers to the commercial areas surrounding Gangnam Highway and Gangnam Station, or the region around the Gangnam Eighth School District. It is not found anywhere in the source. It does discuss the expansion of the Gangnam 8 School District, but that is already discussed in the article.
3. The sentence This generally encompasses only two districts due to administrative reasons: Gangnam District and Seocho District has sourcing and weight issues. I believe you're trying to describe the Gangnam 8 school district here? This article is not about the school district, but about the general cultural region of "Gangnam". The references do support the claim about where the Gangnam 8 school district is located (although one of them is a blog), but describing the Gangnam school district in this article would be undue.
4. The sentences beginning with The western side of... and ending with ...under the jurisdiction of Gangnam District do expand on the history of the districts, but are not due as again, this article is on the cultural region, not the specific districts. You are welcome to include this information on redistricting in the articles for Seocho District, Gangnam District, and History of Seoul.
5. The sentences beginning with Thus, the name... and ending with ...with Gangnam District and Seocho District. are also not supported by due weight and the only source that claims that the Gangnam region is made up only by the Seocho and Gangnam districts is the Naver dictionary entry (whose contents were already included in the article per your suggestion).

~ F4U (talk • they/it) 14:29, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Dear @Freedom4U,

I understand your concerns about maintaining neutrality, but I must respectfully present a counterargument to your points regarding the content on Gangnam. The additions I’ve made to the article are grounded in objective sources, and I believe they offer a necessary perspective on the cultural and geographical significance of Gangnam Gangnam-gu (district) Government official website: Meet Seocho-gu along Gangnam-daero (Gangnam, Sinnonhyeon, and Sina station) connecting Hannam Bridge, with Songpa-gu and neighboring cousins on the border of Tancheon Stream, located in southeastern Seoul, Korea. The winding ridges of Nam - Guryongsan Mountain and Daemosan Mountain are Seocho-gu.

Firstly, the Gangnam 8 School District is indeed a central aspect of Gangnam’s identity. This district, encompassing key commercial areas around Gangnam Station, Sinnonhyeon Station, and Sinsa Station, is crucial to understanding Gangnam’s role in South Korea. When people refer to “going to Gangnam” in South Korea, they typically mean Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu, not Songpa-gu. Songpa-gu’s inclusion in the concept of “Gangnam” is mostly limited to real estate contexts and doesn’t extend to shared administrative functions like the Gangnam 8 School District. The key to explaining the real estate of Seoul has always been the school district (school 群). A school district is an educational administrative unit that combines schools within a certain range according to the commuting distance between middle and high schools. Among them, the most prominent are the eighth school districts in Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu. (서울 부동산을 설명하는 핵심은 언제나 학군(學群)이었다. 학군은 중학교와 고등학교의 통학 가능 거리에 따라 일정 범위 내의 학교들을 묶어놓은 교육 행정단위이다. 그중에서 단연 돋보이는 것은 강남구와 서초구의 8학군이다.)

Moreover, it’s important to recognize that Songpa-gu shares more in common with Gangdong-gu in terms of living areas, school districts, and administrative divisions. Historically and administratively, these districts are intertwined, and excluding this aspect from the discussion would be an oversight. [4]

In conclusion, while I understand the need to avoid bias, it’s equally important to present a comprehensive view of Gangnam that includes its most commonly understood geographical and cultural boundaries. The focus on Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu is not only accurate but also reflects the general perception and administrative realities of the area. Oakwoodic (talk) 14:47, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

The crux of the claim that you're making is that When people refer to “going to Gangnam” in South Korea, they typically mean Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu, not Songpa-gu. Songpa-gu’s inclusion in the concept of “Gangnam” is mostly limited to real estate contexts and doesn’t extend to shared administrative functions like the Gangnam 8 School District. The issue with this is that this is currently only supported by one source, the Naver dictionary entry (the remainder of the references provided do not state this and appear to be original research). However, multiple different sources (both books and academic journals) state that Gangnam is defined primarily as including the Songpa District (see note 1). It would therefore be undue to focus the vast majority of the first lede paragraph on one claim from a single source. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 15:06, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu share key landmarks and areas such as Gangnam Station, Sinsa Station, Sinnonhyeon Station, Nonhyeon Station, Yangjae Station, the Gangnam-Seocho Reserve Forces Training Site, Gangnam-daero, and the Gangnam Eighth School District. According to dictionary definitions, "Gangnam" refers to the administrative districts of Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu. Interestingly, this distinction leads to the perception issue of 'the extent of Gangnam' (what areas are considered part of Gangnam). A research paper published in February last year ('The Imaginary Scale of Gangnam and the Logic of Boundary Making') reveals that a prominent characteristic of Gangnam residents is recognizing only those who have similar or higher living standards as 'residents of Gangnam'. For instance, Mr. H, a man in his 30s living in Jamwon-dong, Seocho-gu, says, "Even though the apartment prices are high, there's a big cultural difference," and asserts, "송파는 강남이 아니다 (Songpa is not Gangnam)." [5]

Is Songpa also Gangnam? However, Songpa-gu has distinct characteristics that set it apart from Seocho and Gangnam. Unlike the high-rise buildings along the main roads of Gangnam-gu or the luxury mansions and residential areas of Seocho-gu, Songpa, which has been densely populated with apartment complexes since the Olympics, is Seoul's largest bedroom community in terms of resident population. Despite its ambiguous position for inclusion in the Seocho-Gangnam area, Songpa strongly reveals a desire to distinguish itself from neighboring Gangdong-gu and to be considered part of the Gangnam area. (그런데 송파구는 서초와 강남과는 구분되는 점이적인 성격을 지닌다. 강남구 대로변에 솟은 빌딩이나, 서초구의 고급 맨션이나 주택지와는 달리 올림픽 때부터 조성된 아파트 단지가 잔뜩 모인 송파는 서울에서 거주인구 1위를 차지한 베드타운이다. 서초강남권으로 엮기에는 애매한 포지션임에도, 이웃한 강동구와는 선을 긋고 강남권에 편입하려는 욕망을 강하게 드러내는 곳.) [6] Oakwoodic (talk) 15:26, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Even after its separation from Gangdong-gu in 1988, Songpa-gu has long retained traces of its administrative ties with Gangdong-gu. The Gangdong-Songpa Office of Education, located within the Jamsil L’Cents Apartment Complex, oversees both Gangdong-gu and Songpa-gu, as indicated by its name. It was called the Gangdong Office of Education until 2010, renamed to Gangdong Education Support Office, and only in 2014 did it add 'Songpa' to its name, becoming the Gangdong-Songpa Education Support Office. The registry office, too, was in Jamsil Bon-dong as the Gangdong Registry Office until 2017, after which it was integrated and relocated to the Seoul Eastern District Court Registry in Munjeong-dong. Most companies group Songpa with Gangdong in their regional public notices, and even the government-operated reserve forces training site is jointly referred to as the Gangdong-Songpa Reserve Forces Training Site. In the case of Pungnap-dong, its local agricultural cooperative falls under the jurisdiction of Gangdong, not Songpa. Songpa-gu, having separated from Gangdong-gu for historical and administrative convenience, shares the same public transportation and bus zones (Zone 3 of Seoul) with Gangdong-gu. Various public and private institutions and companies that link Gangdong-gu and Songpa-gu, such as the KEPCO Gangdong-Songpa Branch, LX Korea Land and Geospatial Informatix Corporation Gangdong-Songpa Branch, and the aforementioned Gangdong-Songpa Office of Education that oversees the 6th School District, operate efficiently. Although located in Songpa-gu, many of these organizations use 'Gangdong' in their names, including entities such as KB Insurance, KB Kookmin Card and other KB Group subsidiaries, Samsung Fire & Marine Insurance and other Samsung Group subsidiaries, Lotte Card, Hyundai Marine & Fire Insurance, among others. Due to the interconnected structure and the lack of a clear geographical or topographical boundary between Songpa-gu and Gangdong-gu, the two districts maintain a close relationship. This is why Songpa is quite different from Seocho and Gangnam.Government owned 한국국토정보공사 Gangnam Seocho / Gangdong Songpa Branch Oakwoodic (talk) 15:37, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@Freedom4U Thank you for your time. Oakwoodic (talk) 15:38, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

From the Seoul National University's Institute of Land Problems, Geography Research Journal:

Definition of the Gangnam 8 School District:

- Includes all schools within Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu.

- The area was divided into arbitrary zones and numbered as Gangnam and Seocho. Regions with a high educational environment and zeal for education are common everywhere.

- The area densely populated with so-called elite schools, including Daechi-dong and Gaepo-dong, as well as the entirety of Seocho-gu and Gangnam-gu, is considered the school district.

- It's merely a division into a school district. Since the district is in the so-called wealthy areas of Gangnam, the schools are well-equipped, and there are many private academies, leading to high university entrance rates.

"This study intends to define the Gangnam school district area solely as Gangnam and Seocho districts."

"The reason for this is firstly, this study views the Gangnam school district area not only for educational reasons but also related to the formation of the area called Gangnam. From this standpoint, it considers that Gangnam, when referred to as a residential area, often does not include Songpa and Gangdong districts."

Secondly, "In the 1980s, when the Gangnam school district area began to gain attention, people living east of the Tancheon, which divides the area, did not perceive themselves as belonging to the true school district. Likewise, interviews revealed that those residing west of the Tancheon did not perceive the east as part of the true school district."

Based on the research paper from Seoul National University's Institute of Land Problems, unlike Seocho/Gangnam-gu, which are part of the Gangnam 8 School District, Songpa-gu, separated by the Tancheon, is often not synonymous with 'Gangnam' in social perception. [7]

Gangnam-daero and Gangnam Station are shared between Seocho-gu and Gangnam-gu. Exits 1-4 and 11-12 of Gangnam Station lead to Gangnam-gu, while exits 5-10 connect to Seocho-gu. Notably, the pub and club streets near exit 10 of Gangnam Station are all part of Seocho-gu. There is no physical boundary between Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu. In key commercial areas around Gangnam-daero, Gangnam Station, and Sinsa Station, there's often no conscious awareness of crossing from Seocho-gu to Gangnam-gu or vice versa. The western side of well-known Gangnam-gu areas such as Gangnam Station, Sinsa Station, Nonhyeon Station, and Sinnonhyeon Station are actually under the jurisdiction of Seocho-gu. Due to various geographical and administrative reasons, Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu are often managed jointly by the government of South Korea and Seoul Metropolitan Government, or classified under the same commercial zone.

Administrative district divisions and commercial area names according to Seoul City Hall classification:

1. Administrative district: Yeoksam 1-dong, Gangnam-gu

Commercial area: Gangnam Station, Seocho-gu, Seoul

Area: 389,457㎡

2. Administrative district: Seocho 4-dong, Seocho-gu

Commercial area: Gangnam Station, Gangnam-gu, Seoul

Area: 192,753㎡

3. Administrative district: Yeoksam 1-dong, Gangnam-gu

Commercial area: Gangnam Station, Gangnam-gu, Seoul

Area: 184,685㎡

4. Administrative district: Seocho 2-dong, Seocho-gu

Commercial area: Gangnam Station, Gangnam-gu, Seoul

Area: 130,650㎡

5. Administrative district: Jamwon-dong, Seocho-gu

Commercial area: Sinsa Station, Gangnam-gu, Seoul

Area: 71,615㎡

6. Administrative district: Jamwon-dong, Seocho-gu

Commercial area: Nonhyeon Station, Gangnam-gu, Seoul

Area: 155,943㎡

All these areas are classified as developed commercial zones by Seoul City Hall.

Regarding commercial zones, Gangnam overlaps only with Seocho-gu and Gangnam-gu. Songpa does not overlap with Gangnam; it only overlaps with Gangdong. [8] Oakwoodic (talk) 16:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@Oakwoodic Good point on how the boundaries of Gangnam are often defined simply by affluence, that's already mentioned in the 'Arts and culture' section, though the results of one ethnographic study don't really warrant inclusion in the lede. I'll also point out that the Hankyoreh source still defines Gangnam by those three districts: 2008년 쇠고기 촛불시위 직후 치러진 서울시 교육감 선거에서 공정택 후보는 ‘촛불 민심’의 후원을 받은 주경복 후보에게 17개 선거구에서 지고도 강남 3구(강남·서초·송파)의 몰표에 힘입어 교육감에 당선됐다. Same with the GQ source which acknowledges that the definition includes the Songpa District (서초, 강남, 송파. 이른바 강남 3구로 불리는 지역이다.), before trying to make the case that Songpa District is actually unique.

Regarding your points on where certain buildings/institutions/zones are, these still constitute original research. Thank you for the SNU paper, that's a good source and quite helpful. Here's my proposal for the first lede paragraph, incorporating the points from the paper.

Gangnam (Korean: 강남; Hanja: 江南; lit. South of the [Han] River; IPA: [ka̠ŋna̠m]), sometimes referred to as the Greater Gangnam Area, is a geographic and cultural region in Seoul. While Gangnam can refer to the entire region of Seoul south of the Han River, the region is generally defined as consisting of the city's affluent Gangnam, Seocho and Songpa districts. Other definitions define Gangnam by the boundaries of the Gangnam Eighth School District or by the commercial zones around Gangnam Highway and Gangnam station. These definitions exclude the Songpa District, which has been argued to be culturally and administratively distinct from the Gangnam and Seocho districts.

I'll note that the paper is still a minority view and doesn't make any claim about what the common usage of the term entails. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 16:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I understand your concern regarding the use of the term "Gangnam 3 Districts(gu) (강남 3구)" and its distinction from "Gangnam (강남)." It's important to note that "Gangnam 3-gu" is not a commonly used term in everyday life in Korea. It is not a legal concept but rather a term occasionally used in real estate articles or announcements pertaining to the housing market.

In daily conversations and practical administrative terms, the concept of "Gangnam" typically refers only to Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu. Songpa-gu, while geographically close, does not share the main administrative and commercial characteristics of Gangnam. This distinction is supported by government documents and websites, underscoring the unique identities of these districts.

Residents of Songpa-gu typically do not consider themselves as part of Gangnam, and the same applies to residents of Seocho-gu and Gangnam-gu. The schools in these areas also reflect this distinction, with Songpa schools being aligned with Gangdong, not Gangnam.

It's crucial to correct any misrepresentations to avoid confusion and misperception among those living in these areas. The differentiation between Gangnam and the broader term "Gangnam 3-gu" should be made clear, respecting the distinct regional identities and administrative divisions within Seoul. [9][10]Please check this map‘Real Gangnam' Seocho Gangnam going up... Songpa and Gangdong is going down'찐 강남' 서초·강남구 상승세 지속…송파·강동은 하락 전환 Recently, there was a property in Songpa-gu that was sold as an urgent sale at a low price. However, do you think it's still possible to hold out to the end because of the 'invincibility of Gangnam'?

- In reality, the areas that can truly be called 'invincible Gangnam' are only around Seocho Banpo and Gangnam Apgujeong.

→ These areas have already formed a league of their own.[11] "The term 'Gangnam 3 Districts' is outdated; now it's 'Gangnam 2 Districts.' As average house prices in Gangnam and Seocho rise by 10 million won, those in Songpa decline. Lacking in development prospects and with a buildup of unsold properties, Songpa becomes a priority for tax burden reduction. The disparity in house prices within the 'Gangnam 3 Districts' is likely to continue," indicates a trend shift in the so-called 'Gangnam 3 Districts.' While Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu maintain an upward trend, bolstered by development prospects, Songpa-gu is on a downturn, similar to other areas, since the beginning of the year. There's also speculation that Songpa-gu might even drop out of the 'Gangnam 3 Districts' category due to a lack of future price increase catalysts.

Real Estate Info explained, "Although Songpa-gu is part of the 'Gangnam 3 Districts,' it does not have the core commercial areas like Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu. The relatively lower-priced properties in Songpa-gu are being put on the market due to the desire to own 'one good property' to reduce tax burdens." Yeokyeong-hee, a senior researcher at Real Estate R114, analyzed, "Unlike Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu, Songpa-gu, although part of the 'Gangnam 3 Districts,' is relatively distant from the center of the Gangnam area. Multi-homeowners in Gangnam are more likely to dispose of properties in Songpa first when organizing their real estate."

The decline in Songpa-gu's property prices is also attributed to an excess in supply. In fact, Songpa-gu has more supply than Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu. In the first quarter of this year, a total of 3,334 households were supplied in Songpa-gu, which is considered an excessively large number. The appropriate supply level, as analyzed by the real estate big data platform Asil, is around 828 households, making the actual supply four times the appropriate amount. In contrast, there were zero new supplies in Gangnam-gu and Seocho-gu in the first quarter.[12]

Is 'Gangnam 3 Districts' an outdated term? Yongsan widens the gap with Songpa. According to KB Kookmin Bank, last month's apartment prices per 3.3 square meters in Yongsan District were 65.09 million won, ranking it as the third most expensive district in Seoul, following Gangnam District (85.64 million won) and Seocho District (78.35 million won). Songpa District (63.27 million won) was positioned fourth. However, Songpa District has experienced fluctuations, primarily due to the decline in large apartment complex prices and difficulties in the redevelopment of Jamsil's Public Housing Complex 5. This has led to a stronger trend of potential buyers preferring to move to Seocho and Gangnam Districts among the 'Gangnam 3 Districts,' leaving Songpa relatively struggling. Director Kim further stated, "Unless Jamsil's Public Housing Complex 5 undergoes redevelopment, it will be difficult for Songpa District to surpass Yongsan again. Yongsan District is predicted to maintain its position as the third most expensive in Seoul in the future."[13] Oakwoodic (talk) 20:20, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Transliteration of names in references

@Bloomingbyungchan Hi, I've noticed your edits here that seem to transliterate Korean names into English. Is there a reason you've done this? From the advice I've read (which I agree with), unless the author has a known English transliteration, it's best to keep the name in Korean because there are many ways to transliterate Korean names. Cheers! ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 03:16, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi! I usually translate from Korean to English, the names of journalists or TV series/films that haven't been transliterated in most articles related to Korea. I sometimes check the email of journalists, which is usually placed at the bottom of articles, to see in which way they translate their names. By the way, it's my first time hearing this advice and I'm now wondering whether I should revert back my edits to this page or no. Thanks, Bloomingbyungchan (talk) 14:48, 19 December 2023 (UTC)