Talk:King of Ryukyu

(Comment 1)

Granted, this is the only page that combines all the lists of rulers of Okinawa prior to and including both the Sanzan period and period of unification under the Ryukyu Kingdom. Still, each of these lists individually can be found under Ryukyu Kingdom, Chuzan, Hokuzan, and Nanzan. I wonder what ought to be done. We can get rid of this list, merging its information on temple names and such (should that be deemed worth keeping) into the separate lists under each kingdom's article. Or, we can keep this list, cleaning it up and improving it, and then linking to it from each of the kingdom's articles.

I see another problem. While most if not all of the people on this list are called by the title ～王 in Japanese & Okinawan, and while that title is most commonly translated as "king" in English, there is an argument to be made that some of these figures (particularly those who ruled before the Sanzan period) were more like chieftains than kings, their societies more tribal than organized kingdoms. I'm not a perfect expert in the terminology semantics of these terms, i.e. in under what conditions it is and is not appropriate to apply terms like "king" and "kingdom", but all in all, I do think it a bit fuzzy. If we're going to include these figures, why not those who were chieftains/"lords" of the other islands prior to their absorption into the Ryukyu Kingdom, such as Oyake Akahachi or Nakasone Toyomiya?

Any thoughts would be appreciated. LordAmeth (talk) 20:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

There are major differences between a chieftain and a lord (Aji), namely that a chieftain doesn't answer to a higher authority. The "kings of the Ryūkyūs" were chieftains that were basically chosen to lead. The Sanzan period came about when some of the stronger Aji realized that their "King" had no real authority. Even during the Sanzan period this weak authority of the "kings" persisted until the island was united under a true kingdom. Although they weren't technically "kings" or "kingdoms", they called themselves such, so it's ok to call them that as long as you know otherwise. Your two examples didn't consider themselves to be kings. Maybe another list should be started at List of Aji of Ryukyu Islands? ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 19:26, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

(Comment 2)

I was researching and noticed something that doesn't quite make sense. In the "First Sho Dynasty" it says "Thus, in 1422, the Hongwu Emperor recognized Hashi as king, gave Hashi the surname Shō (尚) as the designator for his dynasty, and gave a new name to the country: Ryukyu Kingdom.[2]" But this seems impossible as the Hongwu emperor died in 1398, and the Emperor at the time would be the Yongle emperor. How could Ryukyu unify in 1422 and receive recognition from the Hongwu Emperor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SF. Jaffar (talk • contribs) 02:05, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

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"King of Ryukyu" was also one of the official title. It's the most common used title by modern historians

"King of Ryukyu" was also one of the official title, it was mentioned in Ryukyuan, Chinese, Korean and Japanese sources. And, "King of Ryukyu" is also the MOST COMMON USED title by modern historians, it is used by The New Encyclopaedia Britannica (1983). The so-called "King of Chuzan of the State of Ryukyu" is a translated name of "琉球国中山王" created by User:Nanshu, the translated name is too long and ugly. Today, modern historians translate "琉球国" as Ryukyu Kingdom, NO ONE translated it as the so-called "State of Ryukyu" except him. WE SHOULD NOT ACCEPT ANY ORIGINAL RESEARCH NAME like this. What was worse, in many Ryukyuan articles, he replaced "King of Ryukyu" with the so-called "King of Chuzan of the State of Ryukyu". Oh no. Oops...

User:Nanshu repeatedly removed the "King of Ryukyu" (琉球國王/琉球国王) from this article without any justification. It is obvious that he has never read any important primary sources, or never read them carefully. Actually, the title "King of Ryukyu" are mentioned in Ryukyuan sources Chūzan Seikan and Chūzan Seifu, Chinese sources Ming Shilu and Qing Shilu, Korean source Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty, Japanese source Tsūkō ichiran several times. Below are the original texts from these sources:

“ 尚巴志及父 尚思紹係追封且賜之以冠服綵幣等物 琉球國王尚姓此始 ” — 『中山世鑑 琉球國中山王世繼總論』
Chūzan Seikan, General introduction of the Ryukyu-koku Chūzan-ō

“ 琉球國王。遣毛文和等。賚捧表文方物。 ” — 『中山世譜 巻九』
Chūzan Seikan, vol.9

“ 琉球國王察度堅事大之誠遣使來報而山南王承察度亦遣人随使者入覲鑒其至誠深用嘉納 ” — 《明實錄·太祖實錄·卷一百五十一》洪武十六年正月
Veritable Records of the Ming: Veritable Record of the Ming Taizu, vol.151, the first month of the year Hongwu 2

“ 辛巳琉球國王尚泰久遣使臣程鵬等朝鮮國王李瑈遣使臣權聰等來朝貢馬及方物賜宴并賜綵幣表裏等物有差 ” — 《明實錄·英宗實錄·卷二百七十六》天順元年三月
Veritable Records of the Ming: Veritable Record of the Ming Yingzong, vol.276, the third month of the year Tianshun 1

“ 賜琉球國王。御書中山世土四大字 ” — 《清實錄·聖祖仁皇帝實錄·卷之一百四》康熙二十一年八月至九月
Veritable Records of the Qing: Veritable Record of the Emperor Shengzu, vol.276, the eighth to ninth month of the year Kangxi 21

“ 今琉球國王移咨本國, 若使攸司修書契以答, 似違於禮, 以咨修答, 則非隣國交通之禮, 何以處之? ” — 조선왕조실록 세종실록 54권, 세종 13년 11월 15일 병자 1번째기사 1431년 명 선덕(宣德) 1431년 명 선덕(宣德) 6년
Veritable Records of the Joseon Dynasty: Veritable Record of the King Sejong, vol.54, the tenth to twelfth month of the year Sejong 13 (the year Xuande 6, 1431)

“ 正保元年七月三日、琉球国王之使者上下七十人なり、社参として当地発足、赴日光山云々、松平薩摩守所令同道也 ” — 通航一覧 巻之五
Tsūkō ichiran, vol.5

"King of Ryukyu" is also the MOST COMMON USED title by modern historians:

“ In 1872 the Meiji government conferred on the last king of Ryukyu, Sho Tai, the title of vassal king, and in the following year took over the island's foreign affairs. ” — The New Encyclopaedia Britannica - Volume 4 (Encyclopaedia Britannica, inc., 1983, ISBN 9780852294000), Page 363

“ In 1508 Shimazu sent a letter to the king of Ryukyu ” — Japan in the Muromachi Age (East Asia Program, Cornell University, 2001, ISBN 9781885445094), page 173

We can see, the Encyclopaedia Britannica used the name "King of Ryukyu", not "King of Chuzan". "KING OF RYUKYU" IS THE MOST COMMON USED NAME.--El caballero de los Leones (talk) 16:12, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 25 March 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Vpab15 (talk) 21:17, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

---

Genealogy of the Kings of Chūzan → King of Ryukyu – User:Nanshu has renamed it without discussion. However, this article is an introduction to the title "King of Ryukyu", it's not a genealogy; if it's a genealogy, it MUST HAVE FAMILY TREES (like this). Second, we should use "King of Ryukyu" instead of "King of Chuzan"; the most COMMON USED name is "King of Ryukyu", not "King of Chūzan" (see above). El caballero de los Leones (talk) 11:01, 25 March 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 10:34, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I had closed this RM as successful, but after looking at the article history, the article was originally called List of monarchs of Ryukyu Islands but was moved here:[1] by Nanshu without discussion. The article was not originally called King of Ryukyu. Jerm (talk) 02:10, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
• Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan has been notified of this discussion. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 10:40, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support move to King of Ryūkyū. It seems an appropriate title, and the article is more than a simple list. The current title is not as concise. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:17, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

25 generations over 17 THOUSAND years?

Can someone please explain what the sentence

"The 25 generations of the Tenson Dynasty ruled the land for 17,802 years, but their names are unknown."

means. Because a human generation usually is about 16 to 45 years. Even at maximum, 45 x 25 = 1125, ie FIFTEEN TIMES less than the claimed period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.245.191.150 (talk) 02:44, 6 April 2022 (UTC)