Talk:Geneviève Ward

Damehood

The only reference I could locate in the London Gazette regarding Ward's damehood was a posthumous reference, in which she was referred to as Dame Geneviéve Ward, G.D.B.E., so I don't know if she was awarded the DBE or GBE, substantive or honorary (as she was born in the U.S. to American parents and no evidence exists re naturalization). Quis separabit? 23:51, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Who's Who says DBE 1921 and refers to her as Dame, so presumably substantive. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I know it's substantive, but Dame Geneviéve Ward, G.D.B.E. is more likely GBE than DBE. Who's Who is not always dispositive. Also, check this out (3rd page scrolling down). Quis separabit? 00:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

It just says Ward was a dame, not a GBE. It says Ellen Terry was a GBE. Given the only apparent source for her damehood is Who's Who and that says DBE, I think we can go with that. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:41, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Discovered her obituary in The Times, which quite clearly states "Dame Commander". Plus there is an announcement of the award in 1921 with a copy of the letter from Lord Stamfordham specifying it was the DBE. I think we can take that as conclusive. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

OK. Quis separabit? 16:42, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

DBE or GBE??

@Necrothesp: Sorry to have to reopen this matter but according to the Ellen Terry article: In 1922, the University of St Andrews conferred an honorary LLD upon Terry, and in 1925 she was made a Dame Grand Cross of the Order of the British Empire, only the second performer, after Geneviève Ward, to be so honoured. In her last years, she gradually lost her eyesight and suffered from senility. Stephen Coleridge anonymously published an annotated volume of his correspondence with Terry, The Heart of Ellen Terry, in 1928." The link on which this is based, however, is inaccessible (404 message). I could find nothing on Google either. I don't have access to JSTOR or Oxford DNB, et al.

So either Ward was a GBE or the Ellen Terry article must be rewritten. Again, I scoured the London Gazette which provides no assistance, and is the source for the "Dame Geneviéve Ward, G.D.B.E." reference. Any opinions? Quis separabit? 04:09, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

This source states "[Ward] became the first actress to be created a dame commander in the Order of the British Empire in 1921", which is untrue in re DBE as Dame May Whitty was the first actress named DBE. It would, however, make Ward the first actress (formerly singer) named GBE. This link clearly states DBE, but may not be dispositive or accurate.The evidence seems to be piling up. This source states that Ellen Terry and Madge Kendal were the only actresses to be named GBE, which supports the notion that Ward was indeed only DBE. Yours, Quis separabit? 05:29, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

I would still go with Who's Who, which states that Ward had the DBE. I suspect the Ellen Terry article is actually saying (confusingly, admittedly) that Terry was the second actress to receive a damehood, not the second to receive the GBE. Whitty does complicate things, but is actually usually omitted from the list of actresses created dames because her DBE was awarded for her wartime charitable work and not for her acting, which I suspect is the source of the confusion. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:25, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Incidentally, WW says that Kendal too only had the DBE. The only real source for her GBE seems to be the DNB, which does not provide a specific source for its assertion. I suspect that may be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time). I've always understood that Terry was the only actor (of either gender) in history to be appointed GBE. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:38, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

I was surprised also about Kendal now that you mention it. Nellie Melba was GBE but she was an opertatic soprano, an artist but not really an actress. So what do we do. If Ward and Kendal articles have wrong info then how do we fix things? Quis separabit? 15:54, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, Melba definitely was. Her GBE does appear in the LG. But as you say, not really an actor. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:26, 8 March 2016 (UTC)