Talk:George Goodman (RAF officer)

Untitled

I suggest that the page be renamed "George Ernest Goodman (Pilot)". There are other George Goodmans in Wikipedia and there was another George Goodman in No. 73 Squadron. Also the date that the parents moved to Lagos is uncertain. George visited his Mother in 1940 in Lagos while transiting from Takoradi, on the Gold Coast, via Kano and Khartoum, to Egypt(the Takoradi Route)with No 73 Squadron. There is evidence of the parents entering England via Port Said in February 1936 (UK Incoming Passenger List), but no Palestine reference after that. The moved to Lagos sometime between 1936 and 1940. Mark Sheridan 192.118.27.253 (talk) 05:49, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I think this article needs to be temporarily locked. KizzyB (talk) 05:51, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Records in the National Archive show that Sidney Goodman left for Nigeria in April 1939. Family records show that Bida followed 9 months later. Bida's nationality before she became British by marriage was Turkish. She had been married to an officer in the Ottoman Army and had converted to Islam. In order to marry Sidney she converted to Christianity. MarkRS53 (talk) 07:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Jewishness of Goodman.

Extensive research shows that George was born in Haifa to Christian parents, christened in St Luke's Church in Haifa in 1920, and brought up in a Christian environment. He was sent to the German school in Haifa until he returned England to attend Highgate Public School. Although his mother was born Jewish she subsequently converted, first to Islam and then to Christianity before he was born. She is buried in a Christian cemetery in Norwich. Most of this is a matter of public record in the National Archive. George has a pre-Mandate British Record of Birth registered in Haifa which is held in an Israeli archive in Jerusalem and full British registration which can be found in the National Archive. Although he can be claimed by strict Jewish Law to be Jewish because his mother was born Jewish, he, by his choice and his parents, was not. Exactly similar to Benjamin Disraeli. In the same way, it can be claimed that he was a Moslem, because his mother converted to Islam. He was not. If you look at the requirements to be declared a Mandate Palestinian, you will see that George does not qualify in any way. He is only British. His parents left Palestine in 1939 before the war for their next posting in Lagos, Nigeria. His father was a clerk for the Palestine Railway and therefore a British Civil Servant. After Nigeria, the family returned to the UK.MarkRS53 (talk) 05:06, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes it does seem odd that the man is classed as anything other than British, as his father was simply on a temporary posting in Haifa. Would he be described as Nigerian if he'd been born during his father's next posting in Lagos? Little grape (talk) 23:43, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

There is no evidence that his mother converted to Islam, nor is there is any evidence that he was not of Jewish parentage, on both sides. He was a British Jew, who was born in pre-independence Israel. The Jewish virtual library entry on Goodman is well sourced. Seems this niggles a few people. Funny that. Irondome (talk) 02:23, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

I think the religious aspect is a quagmire I've stayed out of (although if his parents really did marry in St Luke's, a Christian church, it is reasonable to say Goodman was born, christened and raised Christian). This is about nationality - the man was *British* - his *British* father was a *British* civil servant who was on a posting in another country. Little grape (talk) 11:26, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

This page seems fairly conclusive - it shows his gravestone, which features a rather large Christian cross on it. Little grape (talk) 12:57, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

• Fortunately it is not our job to make such judgments 80 years after his death. We rely on secondary sources, inlcuding a 2002 study in a historical journal which I have added to the references, which describe him as of Jewish Palestinian/Israeli origins. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:33, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

I just wanted to give an example of how unreliable tombstones are. and, by extension, why we do not rely on Findagrave data as definitive. The actor Albert Salmi is listed in his article as having been born in 1928. Yet his tombstone says 1927. I just looked into that on Ancestry.com. I found that his birth record and his draft card both show that he was indeed born in 1928. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 19:39, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

References

George Goodman

I agree with the writer of the 3rd paragraph that it niggles some people that Goodman was born of a Jewish mother in Israel (Jews always have called it Israel, never Palestine in any case) . Furthermore a cross on a war grave means little; I have had dozens of war graves changed to Stars of David with the Commmonwealth War Graves Commission where all kinds of errors were made about a man's religion; and if this is about nationality why make the point anyway about religion?? signed Martin Sugarman (AJEX Archves) Italic text — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.186.160 (talk) 19:41, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

That's correct. As in all articles, we don't make conclusions based upon primary sources, in this case a photo in Findagrave, but rather on reliable secondary sources. There is only one scholarly study of his nationality, in 2002, and it cites other reliable sources indicating that he was of Palestinian (that is, pre-state) Jewish origin. I've added that as a citation. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 16:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)