Talk:German Shepherd/Archive 3

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Appearance in national breed lines

I cleaned up the section entitled appearance in national breed lines. I tried to remain as subjective as possible without interjecting any personal feelings toward any type. More editing will be required and it may need to be cleaned up a little more. Just make sure to remain neutral, not putting one breed type above another in working ability or confirmation quality.

Before I edited this section there were only three types listed including Czech, American and DDR. I had to add the West German lines and consolidate Czech into the Easter European lines.

Inadarkroom (talk) 21:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Any other ideas? 05:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Inadarkroom (talk • contribs)

Closest relative to gray wolf?

I read in an encyclopedia called Animal Fact File...(something or other) that the GSD is the domestic animal closest related to the gray wolf. Anyone have some facts to back me up on this? --RACiEP (talk) 01:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

There are rumors that there was some interbreeding with wolves in the eraly days of the breed, but only rumors. It's probably not the closest relative anymore, that would be the wolfdogs, but I think it's one of the breeds who are closer related to the grey wolf.--Inugami-bargho (talk) 13:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Killed after 8 years of Service?

I have been told by some people that German Shepherds become weak at their main job after 8 years, is this true? German Shepherds are killed "humanely" by electricity which causes them to die in .3 seconds, apparently that's humane. To add some tears...to the dog as well the dogs are known to cry as they're being dragged away after the electrocuted death, if this information is true that is. Thecutnut (talk) 07:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

where on the wold is this supposed to happen? and who does this? the dogs are used by so many organisations woldwide, it is possible some do such a thing, but i do not think it is a common practice. and why only with this kind of dogs? Elvis (talk) 12:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Come on, everyone!

Whoever wrote the paragraph that appears after the information relating to the DDR Line is CRAZY! The paragraph is not only poorly written, with NUMEROUS grammatical mistakes, but it makes no sense and does not relate AT ALL to the subject matter in that section. please don't write in silly things such as: "Mums don't like dogs but it's goood cause a dog can save your life." I have tried to delete it, but it keeps getting reverted! Everyone needs too step up and start writing the article right! Also, if you see something written in the way that this text was, don't be afraid to delete it. Thank you for listening to my (constructive) whining.64.219.110.28 (talk) 15:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

YAY!!! It's gone now!!! Thank you!!66.137.80.37 (talk) 22:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

'The Alsatian Herders'

Apart from the inherent clumsiness of the opening sentence which makes the breed sound like a band, I have never, ever heard them called 'Alsatian Herder' and most certainly not 'The Alsatian Herder'. People in the UK simply say 'Alsatian'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.22.72.99 (talk) 14:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the first paragraph is extremely clumsy. If it is like this after bit, I think that I'll have a go at trying to make it flow a bit better.--Tom (talk) 01:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

That isn't the only clumsy bit in the article. Read the small paragraph that someone put in after the section titled: "The DDR Line". After some good information in the DDR Line, there is another paragraph below it that is terribly written and doesn't fit in with the other parts of that section. Some people these days!!! 66.137.80.37 (talk) 22:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Refimprove

I have gone ahead and added {{refimprove}} to the article. There are so many sections with no references and seriously need them. German Shepherd Dog#Controversy over the modern appearance is a good example; without references this section is nothing more than Original Research. And phrases such as "Disqualifications for conformation-line dogs include white nails, a nose which isn't all-black, a muzzle which isn't predominantly black, non-erect ears, and very light-toned eyes." ~ Ameliorate _{U T} @ 04:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

White German Shepherd - Has its own article...

The White GSD section on here is one of the more well maintained sections, but the White GSD has its own page now, with a significant amount of background and text. Whilst still relevant to the main GSD article, I feel that this section could be trimmed to a high-level overview of the white variant, linked to the dedicated white GSD page and the relevant extra portions merged in (if necessary) with the White GSD page. Thoughts? - Nickhumphrey 16:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree. This section should be removed and replaced with a single reference to the White GSD page.S1000 06:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Nickhumphrey and S1000. --Tom 18:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

What about German Shepherds that are all black? Mine is. Binglebongle2000 (talk) 20:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

working bread mix with beauty bread GSD

hi guys, anyone can tell me the differences between pure working bread and mix with beauty bread. i just get a mix working and beauty bread GSD around 12 weeks old is solid black and tan on the leg. i am wondering do it weak for this bread? as i know the whole patch of the pups die only her alive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.166.226.41 (talk) 02:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

Beauty or show bred dogs are bred for looks and hopefully health.Workers are bred for strength and are generally healthier.German shepherd sadly have many health problems because of their popularity,since they are bred on puppy farms sometimes.hopefully your GSD will become a strong and pretty dog,just as long as you have a good vet.One thing,wiki talk pages are supposed to discuss the page,and are not advice pages.--70.165.71.229 15:10, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It's "breed" not "bread". Binglebongle2000 (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

150 lbs ???

It says that gsd's can grow upto 150 lbs, which is false. German shepherds dont cross 130 lbs, if its 150 lbs then its a shiloh or a giant shepherd, some body please correct it with referranceUpol007 (talk) 13:23, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's some references regarding weight. If I remember I will edit the article myself later:

http://www.nwk9.com/weight_height.htm

http://www.thebreedsofdogs.com/GERMAN_SHEPARD.htm

http://www.petplanet.co.uk/petplanet/breeds/German_Shepherd_Dog.htm

Looks to be 95 pounds at most to me. ~ Viennan _{U T} @ 22:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

No worries i will fix it up —Preceding unsigned comment added by Upol007 (talk • contribs) 09:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Archiving

Just a note that I have set up archiving on this talkpage. Any discussion that has had no new input after 60 days will be moved to a subpage. This is to prevent discussions that are two years old getting comments related to old revisions. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 23:42, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Black GSD pic

Should I upload a picture of a purebred GSD? I think it would be a refreshing contribution to the article, but I want to get more opinions first. Binglebongle2000 (talk) 22:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead. Although there are photographs of two pure-breds already in the article. The picture of the black GSD is to illustrate the colour section. What would be very useful is say a photo of a GSD rounding up sheep, for when I get around to writing the "working life" section(s). ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 22:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

BTW that same dog is also straight from the DDR line. Binglebongle2000 (talk) 22:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I have a better idea. Since there is already a picture of a solid black GSD in the color section, I could put up the picture in the section about the DDR line, since the picture is of a solid black GSD (raised in germany for 2 years before I got her) is actually part of the DDr line. comments? Binglebongle2000 (talk) 22:43, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure. Go ahead. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 23:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Status of this article

Now that the section on working and the popular culture section has been redone, the article is more in-line with what Beagle looked like when it became featured. I am considering putting it up on Peer Review to see what should improved on to get it up to Good Article status, however before I do that I want to see if any contributors/editors/watchlisters (or anyone passing by) has/have any comments? ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 08:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Why?

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but... why isn't this article just called "German Shepherd"? Surely everyone knows it's a breed of dog? Gatoclass (talk) 12:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

All the major kennel clubs call it by the direct translation of its German name, which makes "German Shepherd Dog" its 'official' title. In fact, for quite a while it was the only breed recognised by the American Kennel Club that had the word "dog" in its official name. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 12:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Still seems to me the article should be entitled just "German Shepherd", because that is overwhelmingly what the breed is known as in the English speaking world. Gatoclass (talk) 13:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The use of "German Shepherd" is a colloquialism. The breed's name is "German Shepherd Dog", much the same as a Labrador is a Labrador, not a "Lab", despite a large number of people calling them that. German Shepherd and German shepherd redirect to here, so that's covered for anyone who is unaware, but the article title itself really should use the official name designated by the major Kennel clubs. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 04:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

No, the breed's name is "German Shepherd Dog" much the same as a Labrador is known as a "Labrador Dog"--but it's not, because that is a peculiar, superfluous construction. The kennel clubs do not define the English language. —Centrx→talk • 04:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no Kennel club that refers to Labradors as Labrador Dogs - there are very few breeds that have "Dog" appended onto their name. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 09:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions specifically states that "article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize...the names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists." So I don't see why the "official" name of the breed should take precedence over the common name as recognized by a general audience. Gatoclass (talk) 04:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The reason is because the name of the breed is not "German Shepherd", the name of the breed is "German Shepherd Dog" - has been since 1919 (not counting the period from 1936-1977 when they were called Alsatians). "German Shepherd" is a colloquial term to reference the breed; the same as "Lab" for "Labrador". "German Shepherd Dog" is not a specialist term nor is it a term that a great number of English speakers wouldn't recognise. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 09:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The name change to "Alsatians" (and then back again!) illustrates the faults of adhering to whatever name the kennel clubs use. The English language does not depend on the British Kennel Club allowing a certain name in 1977. —Centrx→talk • 15:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

When they changed the name, people called them Alsatians - such is the influence of the Kennel Club's naming. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 19:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with AmeIiorate, the breed name is German Shepherd Dog, a direct tranlation of Deutscher Schäferhund. Centrx has it wrong, in that the breed name of a Lab is Labrador Retriever, not "Labrador Dog". In this situation it is not superfluous. There are many examples of this such as the American Pit Bull Terrier being colloquially called a Pit Bull. Leave the article under German Shepherd Dog. Mr Bungle | talk 10:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

If the kennel clubs declared the name "Labrador Retriever Dog", we would still call it "Labrador Retriever" regardless of the kennel clubs. They do not define the English language. —Centrx→talk • 15:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

If Labrador Retrievers had been called Labrador Retriever Dog for 89 years, we would use Labrador Retriever Dog. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 19:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, the literal translation is not relevant. If the German language compounds nouns all and sundry, and incorporates "hund" in the name of a dog, that is not instructive for the English language. For example, the Rottweiler is called the "Rottweil Metzgerhund" in German, but it is not called the "Rottweil Butcher Dog" in English, regardless of the literal translation. —Centrx→talk • 15:25, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

That's because the AKC opted not to use its literal translation (possibly because "Butcher Dog" would harm the breed's reputation, much like "Alsatian Wolf Dog"). If they had, we would call it that. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 19:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Simply, the name of the Wikipedia articles depends on the usage in the English language, and the kennel clubs do not define the English language. There is no "official name" in the English language. The only grounds on which to dispute this name change on Wikipedia, is whether in fact "German Shepherd" or "German Shepherd Dog" is the standard name in the English language, whether or not it is the name used by the kennel clubs or "officially" decreed by the kennel clubs.

You can see the common use of "German Shepherd" (no "Dog") as a name at Google Books: "German Shepherd". It is perfectly possible, however, that "German Shepherd Dog" is the standard or most common name in English--perhaps because of the influence of the kennel clubs. —Centrx→talk • 15:25, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Google Books: "German Shepherd Dog". ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 19:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Certainly, many sources which use that name exist. The question is whether that is the standard, most common name. If we were to go only by the number of books on Google Books, ["German Shepherd" -"German Shepherd Dog"] has 50% more books than ["German Shepherd Dog"], but more compelling evidence would be the canonical works in the field of dog breeds. Because "German Shepherd Dog" appears to be a very common name, I do not now object strongly to it and it may very well be the right name to use, but the fact that it is the name used by the kennel clubs (from time to time) is not a valid basis for decision, though the influence of the kennel clubs is important. —Centrx→talk • 23:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Come on, guys! It's the direct definition of the german word for German Shepherd Dog, and the dog is *german*, so it makes sense for the article the be called German Shepherd Dog. keep it the way it is. Binglebongle2000 (talk) 22:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

My point re Labrador was everyone calls them Labs or Labradors, it is unlikely that anyone actually says Labrador retriever in everyday conversation but that is their breed name (and Wikipedia article; although in that situation it makes sense as it needed some disambiguation from Labrador. Many people shorten dog names for convenience and the shortened version is probably in more common usage in the English language. i.e. Malamute, Doberman, Husky, Ridgeback, Presa Canario, Pit bull. Wikipedia should direct to the correct name.Mr Bungle | talk 23:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The direct definition of the German word for the Rottweil Metzgerhund is "Rottweil Butcher Dog", but that is not the name we call the Rottweiler. —Centrx→talk • 23:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

No distinction between working lines v. conformation lines

This article has been ruined. It contained correct information the last time I viewed it regarding the IMPORTANT and SIGNIFICANT differences in working blood lines versus conformation blood lines (show dogs). These distinctions have been completely removed and now this article wholly ignores working dogs and insinuates that the working blood lines are gone...could not be more incorrect. This article favors show dogs (conformation lines), which is not what the breed standard originally was. I will not refer to this article for information on German Shepherds any more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quickbiscuit (talk • contribs) 05:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I assume you are referring to this section (from a previous version)? The article has been completely rewritten since then, and the section was completely unsourced original research. If you have reliable sources for the information you are welcome to edit the article and add it back in. There is still a section on working dogs in the current version and having the section absent does not insinuate that the working blood lines are gone, it simply insinuates that the section was not worthy of inclusion (just so you know the current state is based heavily on the article about Beagles). Also, I am really concerned that you think the article in its current, sourced state has been "ruined" compared to the old version which contained, unsourced, POV, original reasearch and a section that had been copied and pasted from the AKC website. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 05:40, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

In my view, that information was sourced. The link at the bottom of that section graphically and textually describes the differences between breed lines. Why not list that link as the cite to that section? The link that you posted reverting to the old version is a much better summation of the GSD in my opinion. The new article does not even mention Schutzhund or IPO titles - an extremely popular sport and one that truly showcases the GSD's abilities. In regards to the copied material from AKC in the earlier version, basing the article solely off AKC information is a big mistake...I agree. The AKC has contributed to the dilution of the breed by pushing the "American" (conformation or show) breed lines. This is not what the breed's appearance was originally intended to be, and equal attention should be given to the original working lines, perfect citation or not. Sorry to be so snappy in the earlier post; I just could not believe that such an accurate description of the breed lines was completely removed. Also on the Beagle article, from what I know, the Beagle does not have markedly different breed lines as does the GSD. This article needs to list information on all breed lines in addition to the popularity of Schutzhund competitions. Quickbiscuit (talk) 03:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The link was at the bottom of Appearance in national breed lines and I can't find anything to suggest the nwk9 is a reliable source, also the link doesn't support any of the statements in the section, it only shows what the dogs look - not backing up statements like The West German Lines contain conformation lines and are the best known of the various lines (emphasis mine) or because they are bred for conformation to the breed standard of appearance, these dogs are most often found as quality pets. I am sorry but on Wikipedia we MUST have sourced material, original research is strictly prohibited and verifiability is a key-policy. Titling and competitions was also unsourced and I personally can not see a need for the section; Beagle is a featured article and does not mention anything about show titles, however anyone who is knowledgeable about the area and has reliable sources is free to add it. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 03:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

No explanation given

The article states that the breed was created in 1899 - but doesn't say where the breed came from, or from what it was created. Um...what exactly is a German shepherd? Where did they come from? How did they not exist before 1899, and then exist after? The article doesn't say. Shouldn't it?

For example, the article says "The modern German Shepherd is criticised for straying away from von Stephanitz's original ideology for the breed." But then it never bothers to say what the ideology is.

The article seems like a complete joke if it never even bothers to say where the breed originated from or how it was "invented." I was directed here via the Did You Know on the main page claiming that "Max von Stephanitz, creator of the German Shepherd dog breed, also founded the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde", expecting to find out more about how a breed of dog can be "invented" but there isn't a single scrap of information explaining what that process involves. I know it wasn't done with test-tubes. So what breeds of dog were bred together to "create" the German Shepherd? The article needs to say.139.48.25.61 (talk) 18:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi, anonymous IP! I just wanted to note that I agree with you completely; I unknowingly echoed many of your exact points not half an hour ago while commenting at this article's peer review. It seems we're of two minds, as I'm also curious about the breed's history -- although I wouldn't go so far as to call the article a "complete joke". It's just not finished yet. :) I'm confident that the main contributors will expand upon this before nominating it for GAC, but I'm glad I'm not alone in my opinion. María (habla conmigo) 18:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You are correct that the information has been left out, it was an oversight on my part and, unless someone beats me to it, I intend to fix it up soon. If you're interested, I suggest having a look at the articles on Horand von Grafrath, Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde, Phylax Society and "The Beginnings of standardization" from the Max von Stephanitz article. I created/expanded the articles (with the exception of Max von Stephanitz) and seem to have included scraps of history in them that I should have also stated in this article - something that will rectified ASAP. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 19:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to all for the replies; sometimes one gets so close to the material that they don't see the forest for the trees, so the input of an outsider is useful. Hopefully that was accomplished here - I'll look forward to reading more, and appreciate the recommended reading suggestions. It seems quite interesting.139.48.25.61 (talk) 20:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Expanded the origins section, if you check back here, 139, I would appreciate feedback. ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 10:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Wolf Dog?

Is it true the german Shephard was mixed with pure bred wolfs? ChesterTheWorm (talk) 05:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC) ChesterTheWorm

No. Dogs are long descendant from wolves but the German Shepherd Dog was created by breeding a conglomeration of dogs together until an ideal dog was produced and discovered (mostly be accident), that dog was then bred/inbred with other dogs and its offspring were inbred to preserve the "good" blood. This is touched on in more detail in the origins section of the article. They were named "Alsation wolf dog" at one point due to a slightly similar appearance and because of the name, media at the time capitalised on it, claiming that German Shepherds were "half-wolves". ~ AmeIiorate _{U T C} @ 05:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you should read this: http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/wolf-dog.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.227.81.222 (talk) 07:45, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I use to own a German Sheperd ... best dogs ever! :D--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 09:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)