Talk:German Black Pied cattle

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Russian Black Pied which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:00, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Requested move (September 2014)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

German black pied (cattle) → German Black and White – FAO DAD-IS and if the German Red Pied is the Rotbuntes Niederungsrind the German Back Pied may be the Deutsches Schwarzbuntes Niederungsrind (FAO DAD-IS). Both are not crossed with any Holstein Friesian/Black and White cattle. PigeonIP (talk) 15:02, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Speedy procedural close there can't be two open conflicting move requests open at the same time. The older move request is at Talk:Russian_Black_Pied#Requested_moves and is still open. Please wait until the other move request has been resolved. -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 15:59, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Note, most results from a search on "German Black and White" relate to photography and print. Gregkaye ✍♪ 21:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. I was mistaken. --PigeonIP (talk) 09:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Requested move (November 2014)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to any particular title at this time, due to unresolved questions of ambiguity and scope, while reaffirming that WikiProject consensus for a particular titling format is not a primary concern. In this case, I suggest revisiting the problem once the concerns raised by PigeonIP have been worked out. Dekimasuよ! 19:42, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

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German black pied (cattle) → German Black Pied cattle – All the other breed names are capitalized (the species, e.g. "cattle", is not except in rare cases where it's integral to the formal breed name), and WP:NATURAL policy calls natural disambiguation when practical as it obviously is here. See last three+ months of similar RMs, all of which concluded in favor of natural not parenthetic disambiguation for such animal breed articles. See e.g. the related Black Pied Dairy cattle, and the similarly named Ennstal Mountain Pied cattle, Belgian Red cattle, Ukrainian Grey cattle, etc., etc. This is actually non-controversial by this point, but a formal RM process is harmless.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:46, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Support another possible name might have been German Black and White cattle drawing content from the previous RM but, as I've done it, a search on ("German black pied" OR "German black and white") AND "cattle" indicates that this isn't used. The real significance of the search is that it verifies that no one else disambiguates with brackets. Gregkaye ✍♪ 12:10, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Oppose as proposed, no consensus at WikiProject Agriculture for this titling format. Support capitalisation if this page is to be about a breed. But what is it actually about? I'm damned if I know (please note that the DAD-IS link given above for "German Black and White" is to a listing for Holsteins in Lithuania). What references use the proposed name? If, as appears likely, this unreferenced page is about the Deutsches Schwarzbuntes Niederungsrind then that would be the best name for this page, as that breed does not apparently have a common English name. Otherwise, if enough references are found, move to German Black Pied. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:13, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment: Wikiprojects do not determine WP naming conventions, which are controlled by WP:AT policy. Justlettersandnumbers already had at least three RM admins explain this to him very explicitly, at WT:RM recently, with reference to WP:OWN and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS policies. Five seconds on Google demonstrates that this breed name is in common use [1], so there is no rationale for ignoring WP:USEENGLISH and preferring the German name. The article being poorly sourced and confusing (I agree) isn't a reason to not rename it for WP:CONSISTENCY with other breed article names. If the article itself is hopeless, that's a WP:AFD matter, but I'm skeptical it cannot be rescued.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  20:14, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment: This is not about the "German black and white" or "Deutsche Holstein Schwarzbunt" (see FAO DAD-IS; TGRDEU). This article is about the "Deutsches Schwarzbuntes Niederungsrind" (see FAO DAD-IS; TGRDEU)

"German Black Pied cattle" is ambiguous: German black pied cattle breeds are:

• Deutsches Schwarzbuntes Niederungsrind (DSN, this article)
• German Black-and-White or German Friesian (German: Deutsche Holstein Schwarzbunt (SBT))
• German Black Pied Dairy (German: Schwarzbuntes Milchrind (SMR))

More broadly, "German Black Pied" indeed refers to two breeds: (1) German Friesian (=Deutsche Schwarzbunte, Deutsche Holstein Schwarzbunt) and (2) Deutsches Schwarzbuntes Niederungsrind (older names: Schwarzbuntes Niederungsrind and Deutsches Schwarzbuntes Rind alter Zuchtrichtung)!

Mason's World Dictionary of Livestock Breeds, Types and Varieties, p.55:

• German Friesian redirects to German Black Pied (attention: the Deutsches Schwarzbuntes Niederungsrind is not of Friesian blood!)
• German Black Pied [...] German Original Black Pied (without Holstein Blood) remains are rare breed (attention: the breed without Holstein Blood is the Deutsches Schwarzbuntes Niederungsrind)

last but not least: all three breeds are "German black pied dairy cattle breeds".

There are two options:

1. don't move (German Black Pied cattle is no improvement, in fact it is even more ambiguous)

   this article disambiguates the Deutsches Schwarzbuntes Niederungsrind from the West-German modern breed German Black-and-White or German Friesian and the East-German breed German Black Pied Dairy

2. move it to a non-ambiguous title: Deutsches Schwarzbuntes Niederungsrind (DSN)

   Attention: Black-and-White Lowland or Black Pied Lowland are often understood as the Friesian breed: Livestock, 1993, Cattle breeds, 1995; the German Friesian is not the DSN!

--PigeonIP (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

2nd comment: cause German black pied (cattle) is also no good name. This article should be moved to Deutsches Schwarzbuntes Niederungsrind, that is not to be misunderstood. All English names I found are ambiguous, at least with the German Friesian that was derived out of the DSN and Friesians. --PigeonIP (talk) 16:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Post-RM comments

@PigeonIP: We have no need to use long strings of German here; this is not de.wikipedia. Use the most common names found in English-language sources, per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. The German Black Pied Dairy breed is extinct, but has an article anyway. Friesian cattle has its own major article, under which the German variety should have a section along with the rest (and then the above redlinks can be redirected to that section). So, despite all of the hand-waving above, there is no problem to resolve other than no one's written a section for the German Friesian. You spent so much time digging up sources and writing material in opposition against natural disambiguation of breed names, in RM after RM after RM, I'm wondering why over a year later you've not applied any of it to articles. Is there not enough, in the above, to add a ==German Friesian== section at Friesian cattle?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  01:00, 27 March 2016 (UTC)