Talk:Golden mean (philosophy)/Archive 1

Archive 1

More work and cleanup needed

It looks like the philosophical (or at least non-mathematical) aspect of the golden mean finally got separated out (from what is now Golden ratio) into its own page. This article still needs a lot of work and cleaning up. Any help would be appreciated. WhiteC 07:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

This article is in violation of the GFDL license

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This page was once a Redirect page. I turned it into an Article. I created this Article. My work still appears on this article's page but the history is lost the New Redirect page. What someone has done is deleted the info, made the Redirect page and then copied the info from the old page into a new one with new history. Instead, the Page should have been moved Renamed, and then a Redirect made!WHEELER 01:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The golden mean as a fallacy

No mention of this as a fallacy? Richard001 (talk) 01:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that Aristotle's use of 'the mean' is comparable to the Golden Mean fallacy; although this article doesn't make this clear. Choosing 'the mean' is not simply a case of choosing the middle option, but the one applicable to the agent himself, i.e it is a subjective mean. Equally, it's not always the best choice (Aristotelian ethics are not fixed absolutes) - you still have to give appropriate deliberation to making the good choice. 82.32.198.119 (talk) 18:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Musical ratio

The lowest-numbered ratio representing a major sixth is 5/3, not 8/5. Kj4321 (talk) 20:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)kj4321

That's right. 8/5 is a minor sixth, I believe. Dicklyon (talk) 01:36, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Theano and the Golden Mean

I tried to delete the claim on this page that Theano was in some way responsible for the doctrine of the Golden Mean since the only sources for this claim seem pretty dubious. I was a bit disappointed when my change got reverted, obviously I hadn't explained the problem clearly enough - so I shall try to do so here. Theano is a pretty shadowy figure about whom very little is known. The main ancient sources about her are two entries in the Suda [1], a couple of sentences in Diogenes Laertius' Life of Pythagoras [2], and a couple sentences in Porphyry's Life of Pythagoras [3]. None of these sources make any claim that she wrote about the Golden Mean. The oldest work I could find which does assert this is Mary Ritter Beard, (1931), On Understanding Women, page 139 [4], who claimed that her treatise On Virtue contained the doctrine of the Golden Mean. As far as I know, the treatise On Virtue is only mentioned in the Suda and there is no statement there about the Golden Mean. I don't think Ritter was lying, I just think that she noticed that one of the works attributed to Theano in ancient times was a work On Virtue and merely conjectured that this might have something to do with the Golden Mean. Later books which assert this as a fact simply seem to be uncritically copying and expanding on what Ritter wrote [5]. The current reference we have for Theano on this page is Lynn Osen (1975) Women in Mathematics, page 17 [6] in which she asserts:

Theano, the beautiful wife and former student of Pythagoras, became a teacher there. She was interested in the study of mathematics, physics, medicine, and child psychology, and she wrote several treatises on these subjects. One of her treatises contained the principle of the "Golden Mean" celebrated as a major contribution of Greek thought to the evolution of social philosophy. The children of the marriage between Theano and Pythagoras were also involved in the Order, and at least two daughters helped to spread the system of thought that was developed at the school. After the death of Pythagoras, Theano and two of the daughters carried on his work at the central school.

This is all very colourful, but it is precisely the sort of uncritical writing one often gets in tertiary sources. If anyone can find a primary source, or a secondary source which which explains why it is believed that Theano wrote about the Golden Mean, then I'll happily retract what I've written here. But I've looked, and I can't find any primary source, or any secondary textbook on Pythagoreanism, or Ancient philosophy, which associates Theano with the Golden Mean. Singinglemon (talk) 08:49, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

The article now says "The first work on the golden mean is sometimes attributed to Theano, wife of Pythagoras." This is undoubtedly true. Without more sources, it would be inappropriate to say more, or less. Dicklyon (talk) 18:06, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

The extant fragments attributed to Theano are collected with commentary in Plant, Ian Michael (2004). Women Writers of Ancient Greece and Rome: An Anthology. University of Oklahoma Press. ISBN 9780806136219.. As it says there (p. 68):

The extant works attributed to her [...] have been generally considered forgeries, perhaps dating from as late as the first–second centuries AD.

And of course there is no mention of anything to do with the Golden Mean (and Mary Ritter Beard is not a reliable source on the content and interpretation of ancient texts). I would strongly support deleting the claim from this article or at least qualifying it into the ground.

All the best. –Syncategoremata (talk) 20:31, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Maimonides

I suggest to at least metion Maimonides as a source of the Golden mean in Judaism. 46.116.133.178 (talk) 17:23, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

To Do

I think the intro should just explain the general concept of the golden mean, and note that different philosophers used it differently. Mention applications in Ethics and Aesthetics. I think the Golden Rectangle paragraph should be cut out & pasted into Golden Ratio (if they want it).

The subsection 'Golden Mean in Philosophy' should be expanded so it is the main article. It already treats Greek philosophers' uses of the golden mean in historical order. A section on the Pythagoreans with their mathematical mysticism and ties to the Golden Ratio could go in there. Aristotle's usage needs to be written up a little more too. WhiteC 04:47, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

This bit (from the old article) could be of use

"Golden mean in art

In architecture, the golden mean is the ideal relationships of mass and line which the Greeks perfected over time. Moreover, they found that architecture and art that incorporate this feature are more pleasing to people. This finds its perfection in the Parthenon. This can be compared to one of the first examples of Greek temple building, the temple of Poseidon at Paestum, Italy as it is squat and unelegant. The front of the Parthenon with its triangular pediment fits inside a golden rectangle. The divine proportion and its related figures were incorporated into every piece and detail of the Parthenon.

The Triumphal Arch of Constantine and the Colosseum, both in Rome, are great examples ancient use of golden relationships in architecture.

Phidias, a famous ancient Greek sculptor, incorporated the Golden Mean in all his work."

WhiteC 04:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

The keats quote is gratuitous and inappropriate. user:Evan 0007 6 may 2008 EST —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.16.37.92 (talk) 04:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The Zhuangzi reference says nothing meaningful and i would suggest deletion. i don't recall any quote in the zhuangzi text, and if either watts or zhuangzi said something about the mean, the article ought to clearly delineate it.ShaziDaoren (talk) 03:09, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Complete Hokum

This is yet another example of a phantasm becoming a thing because it somehow wangles its way into Wikipedia. The phrase has no noteworthiness in a philosophical sense. The phrase "golden ratio" (and occasionally "golden mean") *is* noteworthy in mathematics but since that has already now been split off into its own "Golden Ratio" page, this page should just be deleted. As an absolute worst case, what's being referred to here could *maybe* be mentioned in a small way back on the main Golden Ratio page, but giving it its own page is vastly disproportionate. And, that said, as far as I'm concerned, this whole page is talking about a non-concept and should be trashed. What's next -- the "Golden" Middle Way of Buddhism, or the "Golden" Mediterranean? 2605:6000:F340:A500:CC0A:A594:6D85:B871 (talk) 14:48, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Keats Poem

What is the quotation from Ode on a Grecian Urn doing here? It has nothing to do with the philosophical concept of the Golden mean and serves to illustrate nothing about the topic at hand. This belongs in some other article: notions of beauty, interpretations of truth, or infamous poem conclusions. Not here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.95.18.39 (talk) 18:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly and will take it upon myself to excise the Keats reference. Tigercompanion25 (talk) 17:54, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Islam

This section seems incredibly biased and suspect. It will need extensive fact-checking and citations. Also, some of the grammar is embarrassingly flawed. This section must remain objective, free from informal pronouns and entirely focused on the philosophy of Aristotle's "golden mean," not for the promotion of personal beliefs. This section is an absolute abomination and an embarrassment: it brazenly promotes Islam, confuses the reader, distracts from the topic of the "golden mean," and uses horrifically informal, incorrect, and unusable grammar. Last note: the diction should be professional and intelligent, yet still comprehensible to the average person. Over complicated sentence structure and showy word choice are counter-productive for informing people of a topic. Here is the full text of the section:

Islam promotes the golden mean in many instances. The Quran states an example in finance, in that a person should not spend all he makes as not to be caught needing, and not to be stingy as to not live a comfortable life. Muhammad also had a saying "خير الأمور أوسطها" meaning the best choice is the middle ground/golden mean one.

The foundation of Islam is itself the antithesis of extremism. In Quran (Chapter 'The Cow', verse number 143) it is said that, "We have made you a balanced, moderate nation". Islam is called the 'Middle Way' or 'Ummat-e-Wasta' because its teaching tells you to be moderate in your affairs.

Quran quotes the example of two groups of people, calling one of them extremely greedy (Chasing the wealth of the world) in Chapter 'The Cow' verse 96 and to the others as inventors of monasticism (over zealousness in religion) in Chapter Al-Hadeed verse number 27. Islam councils its followers to abstain from both these paths of extremities and adopt moderation in chasing the world and practicing religion alike.

While teaching about tolerance, Islam doesn't ask of you to be a pacifist. At one end, You cannot turn the other cheek while on the other you are prohibited from becoming war mongering blood thirsty hordes. Keeping in mind the prevailing licentiousness of its times, Islam did allow its people to continue the practices, it did however channeled them by making them humane by limiting them in a moderate manner, while at the same time not asking of them to remain single for the rest of their lives. Islam do not allow you to be spendthrift on one end, while on the other it asks you let the blessings of Allah appear on you (meaning wear good, have a nice ride). It forbids its followers from jumping the bandwagon of consumerism culture but orders you to spend on your families. The middle way of Islam culminates into the idea that it does not like monasticism on one side while on the other it reminds you that the life of this world and its attractions are just a deception so do not get over indulged in it. In Islam, you cannot turn ascetic by leaving aside your own share from this temporal world, as Quran and sayings of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) tell us, but at the same time that health and wealth, that Allah has bestowed upon humans, is not just a gift but a 'trust' (Amaanat) that 'must' be used for the welfare of people and society at large. From all the teachings of Islam we see this light of moderation emanating.

I will work to help edit this a bit, as I have a Qur'an, but this section needs complete overhaul desperately. --Christopher Bryan S. (talk) 00:47, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Doubts about whether this article should exist or is perhaps named wrongly

As far as I know, Aristotle never mentions any doctrine of a golden mean. He mentions a mean, but it is a quite sophisticated discussion he gives that bears little connection to later simple stories. Where does the term "golden mean" originate?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:46, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, there is just one cited source, but it does at least confirm that the concept exists and has been associated with Aristotle. Improvements via more sources would certainly be a good thing. Here are some good places to look to see what authors have said about Aristotle and the golden mean. Dicklyon (talk) 17:41, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

I’m raising this again. The notion of a mean attributed to Aristotle, and others, certainly has good provenance, but it was never “Golden”. As far as I can see, that is a modern invention and is probably part of the reason the Aristotelian notion of the mean gets conflated with the unrelated, and somewhat dubious use of the term in aesthetics. 2605:6000:F343:F300:5181:6FAC:1176:67F0 (talk) 02:25, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Aristotle

Shouldn't this page have much more emphasis on Aristotle? Other Greek philosophers may have used the concept to some extent, but isn't it overwhelmingly Aristotle's idea? He discusses his theory of the mean extensively in Nicomachean Ethics. --Jcbutler 17:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC) Someone also please include Goldilocks and the Three Bears, perhaps under modern? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheExpensiveEncyclopedia (talk • contribs) 15:46, 27 May 2020 (UTC)