Talk:Chinese famine of 1906–1907

If someone wants to work on this article

https://books.google.nl/books?id=al6fTRnjY1wC

Go to pages 69 and 70 on the preview. The previews contain a decent amount of information. Make sure to write the WP article in your own words to avoid plagiarizing. Koopinator (talk) 18:00, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

A questionable article

The sole basis for this page is Kte'pi, Bill (2010-12-29). "China famine (1907)". Encyclopedia of Disaster Relief. SAGE Publications. pp. 69–71. ISBN 978-1-4522-6639-8. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help). The author of the encyclopedia article, Bill Kte'pi, is listed as an independent scholar. So far as I can tell, he has written a couple of novels, has no publications on China, no publications on famines or natural disasters, and no publications in any scholarly or academic journals whatsoever. The encyclopedia article lists only four references:

• Broomhall, Marshall (1908). Present-day conditions in China. New York, Chicago [etc.] Fleming H. Revell company; Philadelphia [etc.] China Inland Mission.: This missionary work mentions the famine at 'Chinkiang', i.e. Zhenjiang in 1906 caused by flooding. It gives no casualty or death numbers whatsoever.
• Charity organization Society of the City of New York (1912). The Survey. Vol. 27. New York: Survey Associates. This was a semi-annual collection of articles from various charity groups. There is no way this could support any figures for anything.
• Morgan, Stephen L. (2007-02-01). Stature and Famine in China: The Welfare of the Survivors of the Great Leap Forward Famine, 1959-61. Rochester, NY: Social Science Research Network.: this is an unpublished conference paper from 2007. It discusses the well-known Great Leap famine of 1959-61, and makes no mention of a a famine in 1906-07.
• "Chinese famine a peril: American consul predicts dangerous outcome of terrible conditions". New York Times. 1907-01-29. I don't have access to this, but I assume that it is also an account of the 1906 flooding in Jiangsu.
• The article also has a link to a Chinese newspaper article from sina.com. This discusses the Qing dynasty's emergency aid to Japan and has nothing to do with the article.

Sage is generally a reliable source, but the encyclopedia's claim is so extravagant, the article's basis so weak, and the author so unknown that I think this page should simply go. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rgr09 (talk • contribs) 23:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@Rgr09: I added some extra info and sources. What do you think of the article now? Koopinator (talk) 16:34, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

@Koopinator: Hi! Thanks for taking the time to try and fix the article. Unfortunately, I don't think the article can be saved. There must be a real source for the fact of the famine with a specific location, a specific time frame, and some basis for calculating famine related deaths. This needs to be a reliable source, or in this case, many, many sources.

A famine in 1907 China with deaths of 25 million would be one of the most important historical incidents of late Qing China. This death toll would mean that something over half of all Jiangsu died in 1907, not ten percent. As far as I can tell, this is mentioned in no book or article on history of this period in either English or Chinese. A three page article in a book on emergency relief -- not even Chinese history -- by a totally unknown author who cites zero credible sources is wildly insufficient. This article is simply an unfortunate example of very low quality editing by Sage. These "dictionary" or "encyclopedia" compilations that academic publishers pump out are all too often marred by such problems.

The new additions to the article feature an interesting resource. I didn't realize that Trove carried such great indexed reproductions if old papers! This is an excellent resource for people interested in Australian history. But Australian newspapers from 1907 will not establish the factual nature of what appears to be a totally phantasmal event. The article needs references to current books or articles on late Qing or early Republican history that describe such a cataclysmic event, or a general work on famine in China which gives sources for such a phenomenal death rate. Rgr09 (talk) 00:53, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@Rgr09: I do hope such sources are found and that this article will use more high-quality academic works in the future. However, with Wikipedia's current policies it seems unlikely to me that this article will pass through articles for deletion. I think many editors would feel that this topic merits more attention on Wikipedia, not less. Koopinator (talk) 07:47, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Great Qing Famine

@Wikisanchez: Is "Great Qing Famine" just a name you made up, or did you find that name used in an actual reliable source? I can't find it referred to as the Great Qing Famine anywhere other than Wikipedia. Koopinator (talk) 07:47, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi :) thank you for your help. And for moving to Chinese famine of 1907. It looks better and it's the correct way.--Wikisanchez (talk) 14:29, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

A relevant Quora thread

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-causes-and-consequences-of-the-Chinese-Famine-of-1907-and-why-is-there-a-dearth-of-information-on-it-The-death-toll-is-estimated-to-be-up-to-24-million-yet-there-is-no-Wikipedia-page-about-it/answer/Steven-Lee-%E6%9D%8E%E6%8F%9A%E9%9D%88

Sadly, Quora is not a reliable source. I seem to be unable to access this guy's sources, either. Still useful for reference. Koopinator (talk) 12:37, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

At last, a real source, good find. Quora is not usable of course. For your info, however, the Quora guy finds a claim of 24 million deaths 'extremely unconvincing'. This is putting it mildly. Quora guy cites an MA thesis that claims 7.6 million were affected. How then could 24 million die? Quora guy coolly estimately with 7.6 million affected, deaths should be 2.4 million. This is also hogwash. There is a link to the thesis in the quorum post. The thesis abstract gives no casualty figures at all. In fact, the point of the thesis is that the relief effort after the floods was highly successful. With Chinese refs an article could be written. The sole English ref from Kte'pi is a crock. I will remove it and put in some of the Chinese sources tomorrow. Rgr09 (talk) 13:24, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@Rgr09: I wish you good luck. Koopinator (talk) 15:40, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Another Famine article you may want to right on?

It's doesn't even have it's own Wikipedia article. It's Called " Four Famines of 1810 ". It lasted up to 1849, and roughly 45 million Chinese died. It's just a thought, since you did a good article on this. And thank for your writing of the Qing famine of 1907! TaipingRebellion1850 (talk) 06:06, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Re: XTheBedrockX

added relevant templates, because wow, that's a pretty big claim for an article this small on details (and the Chinese language article is essentially one paragraph)

— @XTheBedrockX: in recent edit summary

The Chinese article was translated from this one. The other discussions of this talk page may be of interest to you. Koopinator (talk) 14:06, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I kinda figured that. I actually added those precisely because of the previous discussions here. I'm unfortunately no expert in Chinese history (let alone this period right here), but this definitely seems like a topic that can be clarified/expanded upon. XTheBedrockX (talk) 19:44, 17 August 2023 (UTC)