Talk:Greeks in Russia and Ukraine

(Redirected from Talk:Greeks in Russia and the Soviet Union)
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Rotideypoc41352 in topic Requested move 16 May 2022
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Requested move 16 May 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Split. After over a month, consensus has formed that the article title should use modern-day country names. Those article titles then imply a scope that covers any history. Some minor disgreements remain on how to split to best manage the overlap between this and several other articles (those for USSR successor states and those for older historical periods of the region). These disagreements can be worked out in draft space, then executed in mainspace after consensus has formed on the split. The drafting process can also help mitigate the chicken-egg scenario of article scope and title, which seems to have happened here. Cheers! (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 13:06, 29 June 2022 (UTC)Reply


Greeks in Russia and the Soviet UnionGreeks in Russia – Similar articles generally just say "Russia" while still including the group's Soviet-era history, which makes sense, as Russia is generally accepted as the successor of the Soviet Union. Examples include Ethnic Chinese in Russia, Japanese people in Russia, and Iranians in Russia. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 22:03, 16 May 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. Spekkios (talk) 01:20, 23 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Your alternative isn't a bad idea. The article puts heavy focus on Russian and Ukrainian Greeks and the only mention of Caucasus Greeks in the Soviet Union is unsourced. Also, I wasn't clear, but I was referring to the fact that Russia is generally considered the primary successor of the USSR, having made up about 77% of its land and taking its spot on the UNSC, even if not the only one. --An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 20:48, 17 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
Legally, the RF considers itself the sole continuation state, but this is disputed by Ukraine: the USSR ceased to exist, and I don’t know if a continuator is legally established. The normal meaning of successor is the state that now has sovereignty within some territory of an old one: Ukraine, not the RF, succeeded the USSR within its own borders, taking ownership of all assets there according to the principal of uti possidetis juris. Successors also inherit all of the treaty privileges and obligations, and all twelve successors did (e.g., Ukraine was also party to the INF Treaty, &c.). The RF is the largest successor by area, for whatever that’s worth, and it was given some assets by agreement of all the other successors, including the UNSC seat and foreign embassies. What is “generally considered the primary successor”? Sounds like orientalist or neo-colonial thinking to me. —Michael Z. 21:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
My apologies if I've offended you. I'm not saying it's justified, but that's how the Russian Federation considers itself, and the international community has generally been tolerant of this perspective. All of this is irreverent to the point I was trying make, so it was my mistake for bringing it up in the first place. My main point is that the RF controls a large majority of what was once the USSR, and the only mention of a Greek community not explicitly stated to be in Russian or Ukrainian territory has no citation, so your proposal works. Stand with Ukraine. --An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 21:35, 17 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
I’m not offended, and that sounds like an accurate assessment. But see WP:systemic bias for some considerations. Cheers. —Michael Z. 21:40, 17 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
Regarding the article, I think we have to determine which of these are about Greeks in a territory, and which are specific modern or historical Greek peoples:
 —Michael Z. 22:05, 17 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
Having skimmed most of these, it seems that the majority of them have a pronounced focus on historical events and don't really talk about the actual culture of these communities, which is a problem in and of itself. Anyway, it appears that except for Caucasus Greeks, Pontic Greeks, and Urums, all of the articles you listed are simply about Greeks in a territory (which makes the title of Ukrainian Greeks slightly misleading, in my opinion). --An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 00:24, 18 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thank you. So there is still an overlap in scope between “Russia and the Soviet Union” and nine other articles, as I mention below. —Michael Z. 19:34, 18 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vpab15 rightly asked on my talk: Since you say there is a consensus to move to the modern-day country name, should it be moved as proposed to Greeks in Russia?. I clarify here, so anyone looking at the RM can also see my comments. There is consensus to move, but no consensus on the new title. WP:OTHEROPTIONS allows the closer to choose one based on policy and guidelines, but a title may preclude a split, which every participant said is needed. As long as a split eventually occurs, Greeks in Russia and Ukraine is the title that reflects the current, pre-split scope. The last sentence of WP:OTHEROPTIONS applies: And if anyone objects to the closer's choice, then instead of taking it to move review, they should simply make another move request at any time, which will hopefully lead the article to its final stable title [formatting original]. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 16:36, 29 June 2022 (UTC)Reply