Talk:List of monarchs of Korea

I removed Tondemo theories. Those who believe Hwandangogi or other apocryphal books added them. I think I removed all of them but maybe some are left. --Nanshu 02:11, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

According to Dangi Gosa, five planets appeared in the same palce(五星聚婁) in fiftieth year of Dangun Heuldal, BC 1733. Modern astronomers figured out that this event really happened in July 13, BC 1734. That one year error is because of different counting of years. There is no chance authors could use this modern astronomical devices before 1979, and no other Chinese records describe this astronomical event in 1734 BC. At least Dangi Gosa cannot be a forgery. -- Caffelice 17:31, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I could find only one reference to it in English. Here - Caffelice 13:14, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Reversion of July edits

An anonymous contributor made major changes and additions to this article on 14-15 July 2004. Unfortunately, the changes fall wholly into 2 categories:

1. Replacing the existing and perfectly fine lists of rulers for various kingdoms and dynasties with slightly different lists that had inexplicable misspellings in them (for example, the kings and queens of Silla);
2. Inserting quasi-mythical lists of rulers.

Over the last month, other contributors have tried to make piecemeal corections to these changes, but more drastic action had to be taken:

• For (1), I reverted the affected sections back to gdr's edit of 30 June 2004, since article titles are tied to that version.

• For (2), I accept that somewhere in the history of Go-Joseon, that kingdom moved from myth into reality, so I have kept the list of rulers for Go-Joseon, and for the historically more recent Buyeo, Bukbuyeo, and Dongbuyeo. But I have removed the section on Paedal, unless someone can find a good reason for putting it back in. As for the section on Barhae, the list that this contributor inserted bears absolutely no relationship to the Korean names of the list of rulers on the Bohai page—unless those names were in the native language of Barhae....

I am the most diligent and prolific contributor on Korean topics on Wikipedia, but this article in its current state was frankly unacceptable. -山道子 (Sewing) - talk 22:26, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I agree that Baedal section should be deleted. Not even "Apocrypal" books have detailed records of Baedal rulers. - Caffelice 13:14, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

korean era name article

any thoughts on merging Korean era name with this article? maybe make the former an explanatory article, with the actual list being integrated with the rulers list here? that would mean creating proper tables. Appleby 23:30, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

also, there's already a President of South Korea that pretty much duplicates part of this list. does anyone know if north korea considers the provisional gov't to be legitimate gov't, so that it belongs in "korea," or does it belong only in "south korea"? i was going to suggest renaming this article to be consistent with List of German monarchs & Table of Chinese monarchs, but obviously only if post-monarchy leaders are covered elsewhere. Appleby 03:42, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the inclusion of the modern presidents here has always seemed a little odd to me... I think a "see also" link would suffice. And though I don't have an authoritative text at hand, I'm almost certain that the Provisional Government was always a relatively right-wing element of the independence movement, and thus would not be recognized by the North. -- Visviva 04:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

goguryeo list

i had extensively edited the kings list when i moved them here from the goguryeo article. goguryeo is considered korean, not chinese, not chinese/korean, by virtually all, if not all, authoritative publishers outside of korea/china. it's simply not a serious dispute outside of china's political program. even balhae, which is arguably less completely "korean" is described as korean by britannica, columbia, encyc of world history, etc etc. the controversy is properly discussed in a paragraph at the goguryeo article, but the extreme minority position need not be reflected in "rulers of korea" list. Appleby 17:00, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Deleting the Chinese pronunciations is just a loss of information, and the sources for these names are all written in classical Chinese. —Babelfisch 05:33, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

the list of japanese emperors does not contain chinese pronunciations. adding information in itself is not necessarily a good thing for an encyclopedia. other reference works treat goguryeo as korean, and we should be consistent. Appleby 07:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

gojoseon list

any thoughts on 환단고기, 규원사화, 태원선우씨세보 lists for gojoseon? i bring this up because wiman's usurpation of jun's throne is generally accepted as history, but jun's lineage back to gija is not. i've recently created Jun of Gojoseon & wanted to add to this list, but it brings up some messy issues. Appleby 01:25, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

it's not easy getting to the bottom of this. can anyone help out with some credible sources for more info? i'm still not quite sure how to place Jun of Gojoseon in this conflicting list of lists. Appleby 07:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Courtesy names?

I notice that the Goryeo emperors, in the box to the right, have temple names, birth names, and courtesy names. But the boxes for the Joseon rulers often list only temple names and birth names. Is it because Joseon didn't have courtesy names or just because the boxes didn't include these? Badagnani 09:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The Joseon rulers certainly had courtesy names; however I think we might question whether it is necessary to include such information here for either Goryeo or Joseon, since it should already be present in the individual rulers' articles. -- Visviva 15:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Chadae

please see [1] [2] [3] Appleby 02:55, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

List of Rulers of Korea → List of Korean monarchs – This is the standard form for articles of this nature; see Category:Lists of monarchs. Since the list includes kings, monarchs, and others whose status is not perfectly clear, the hypernym "monarchs" is most appropriate. In fact, this was the title of this page for some time. The page was moved away from this title on 18 June without any comprehensible justification, and later moved to the current capitalization-challenged version. Visviva 15:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Discussion

Add any additional comments

• Oppose Its not a "monarch". Where did you come up with that? Japan and China both use the title "emperor" for the royal line and Korea uses "king". I don't understand why "monarch" should be used. A monarch is a lower status than king and I have never seen "monarch" used to describe a Korean ruler. King Sejong is not called Monarch Sejong. I support "List of Rulers of Korea" because it best and clearly represents what they are: rulers. Good friend100 04:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment - Just to make sure everyone is aware what a monarch is--by definition all kings and queens are monarchs. See Encarta's definition, for example, "1. supreme ruler: somebody, especially a king or queen, who rules a state or territory, usually for life and by hereditary right" —LactoseTI^T 20:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

But its not neccescarily used and outside people will most likely refer to as kings or emperors when searching for Korean rulers. "Monarch" is not commonly used. Also, "ruler" is perfectly fine; theres nothing wrong with it.

Here you want the best definition even though its less used and at the Imjin War talk page you insist the "most commonly used title". What is it that you really want? Good friend100 23:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I was just leaving a note that in English, monarch is a general term that refers to "king and queens". It is commonly used, and has the added benefit of being gender neutral. —LactoseTI^T 23:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

In response to the question: mostly I would like people to stop moving pages around for no apparent reason. "List of rulers of Korea" (note the small "r") would be acceptable, and in fact this page was at that title for a long time. However, I think that using the term "rulers" can give rise to issues of inclusion (Daewon-gun was arguably a ruler, though not a monarch) as well as POV (see Talk:Kim Jong Il for amusingly tedious discussions of this). For that reason, I think Appleby was correct to move this page from "rulers" to "monarchs." With the title "List of Korean monarchs" (or "List of monarchs of Korea"), the inclusion criteria are reasonably clear and non-controversial. -- Visviva 11:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support as long as the list only includes monrachs. And Good friend100, you need to check the definition of monarch as it includes kings and emperors. -  AjaxSmack  05:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support as nominator. (thanks to AjaxSmack for the reminder). -- Visviva 11:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support. "Monarchs" is a more precise term for ancient rulers, and is preferred. Also, it is correct English, despite some of the comments above.--Endroit 18:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

"Ruler" does not make a specific gender reference. And if "ruler" is such a bad title, then whats with the sudden "lets move it move it"? The article was moved quite a long time ago and nobody complained about it after the move. Good friend100 01:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

And "Imjin War" is an English name. Good friend100 01:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support per nominator and others. There is no real reason to have different wording for this group of monarchs. —LactoseTI^T 12:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

If "monarch" is the best word, then why is "ruler" not? "Ruler" includes both Kings and Queens so it is not sexist. Also, some leaders of Korea were not monarchs because they didn't rule Korea as a country, like Dangun. And is ruler not an English word? Ruler has the most broad definition. It doesn't neccesarily reference a king and can mean any type of leader of Korea. Good friend100 18:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

List of rulers of Tahiti? If the word monarch should be used, then why isn't this article not moved? This article seems very stable, as a talk page has not even been started. To the Tahiti talk page at once! Good friend100 18:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you were being facetious--I would suggest moving that stub of a page now directly, as I doubt it will be controversial. —LactoseTI^T 22:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Then move it. You want monarch right? Good friend100 21:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The article still uses "ruler" and not "monarch". If using monarch is important, then why don't you change it? Good friend100 22:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer List of monarchs of Korea over List of Korean monarchs on the grounds that the latter sounds a bit like ‘List of monarchs who were Koreans’ rather than ‘List of monarchs who reigned over Korea’. Just out of curiosity – would “List of sovereigns” exclude (I guess so) or include Daewongun? Wikipeditor 04:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: What about List of monarchs in the British Isles and List of monarchs of the United Kingdom? They are not of the form List of fooian monarchs. Guy 09:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Move

I made the move. I decided that List of Monarchs of Korea would best fit MoS. --Woohookitty^(meow) 09:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Um, can you explain the capitalization? Seems like it should be "List of monarchs of Korea" at least. -- Visviva 11:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree; probably just an oversight? —LactoseTI^T 12:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it really matters. Good friend100 02:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

As "List of Monarchs of Korea" is not a proper noun, "monarchs" should not be capitalized per Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Lowercase second and subsequent words. --Kusunose 06:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

And as to "Korean monarchs" vs "monarchs of Korea", the latter is preferable per Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Country-specific topics. --Kusunose 01:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

tag

Is it possible to remove the move tag off this talk page? It says when full consensus has been reached and I think it has been now. Good friend100 20:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Gojoseon

Anybody against moving the Gojoseon monarchs to List of legendary monarchs of Korea? It is presented here in a matter-of-fact style with dubious sources, which is very misleading for uninformed readers. Wikipeditor 12:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Readers are apprised of their legendary/controversial nature, so I don't think it's necessary. Cydevil 04:05, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to revisit this thread. I think it would be better to put all the rulers from Gojoseon to Mahan in the List of legendary monarchs of Korea exclusively. As things stand there is some repetition. I think it is beside the point that readers know of their legendary nature. Check out the two equivalent articles for British monarchs -- they keep things straight. Articles need to be to-the-point overviews. I think that we need to develop History of Korea articles just as we need to develop Mythology of Korea articles. For the sake of Korean mythology articles, why not keep things straight? For the sake of consistency and developing a smokin' encyclopædia, it is necessary to keep things in their correct categories. No slight intended, but not to keep things straight is a little sloppy, no? Thoughts? Mumun 無文 21:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Kim Jung Il

NO mention of Kim Jung Il, current dictator of North Korea? What is the difference between a dictator and an absolute monarch? --69.234.209.204 16:14, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Jknight 98

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Academic consensus

• Pai, Hyung Il (2000). Constructing "Korean" Origins: A Critical Review of Archaeology, Historiography, and Racial Myth in Korean State Formation Theories. Harvard University Asia Center. p. 95. ISBN 978-0674002449.

"The continuing popularity of Tan'gun studies (Yun I-hum et al. 1994) clearly reflects the progressively ultra-nationalistic trend in Korean historical and archaeological scholarship today."

• Pai, Hyung Il (2000). Constructing "Korean" Origins: A Critical Review of Archaeology, Historiography, and Racial Myth in Korean State Formation Theories. Harvard University Asia Center. p. 122. ISBN 978-0674002449.

"Consequently, Korean studies that address topics such as the emergence of ancient Korean civilization, statehood, religion, and identity are inexplicable without reference to a complex jumble of contradictory narratives filled with Tan'gun fiction, competing dynastic myths, and hypothetical invasions of tribes, as well as unaccountable archaeological data. This state of confusion has rendered it virtually impossible to distinguish fact from fiction in studies on ancient Korea."

• Seth, Michael J. (2010). A History of Korea: From Antiquity to the Present. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. p. 443. ISBN 978-0-7425-6717-7.

"An extreme manifestation of nationalism and the family cult was the revival of interest in Tangun, the mythical founder of the first Korean state... Most textbooks and professional historians, however, treat him as a myth."

• Stark, Miriam T. (2008). Archaeology of Asia. John Wiley & Sons. p. 49. ISBN 978-1-4051-5303-4.

"Although Kija may have truly existed as a historical figure, Tangun is more problematical."

• Schmid, Andre (2013). Korea Between Empires. Columbia University Press. p. 270. ISBN 978-0-231-50630-4.

"Most [Korean historians] treat the [Tangun] myth as a later creation."

• Peterson, Mark (2009). Brief History of Korea. Infobase Publishing. p. 5. ISBN 978-1-4381-2738-5.

"The Tangun myth became more popular with groups that wanted Korea to be independent; the Kija myth was more useful to those who wanted to show that Korea had a strong affinity to China."

• Hulbert, H. B. (2014). The History of Korea. Routledge. p. 73. ISBN 978-1-317-84941-4.

"If a choice is to be made between them, one is faced with the fact that the Tangun, with his supernatural origin, is more clearly a mythological figure than Kija."

First posted on Template talk:History of Korea, reposting here as these are clearly related to the current discussion and will be useful for expanding and/or rewriting the article with more reliable sources.--219.111.108.11 (talk) 16:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Disclaimer: the above message was originally posted by me here. The anom user (who uses many different IPs) has reposted my message on several talk pages without proper attribution. I have absolutely no connection with this user. -Zanhe (talk) 05:06, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

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Is another Dangun war ready to be launched ?

Dangun, a promising guy !

File:King Sejong-crop.JPG

Sejong, with a book.

It seems that another Dangun edit war is on the verge of being launched. If this Dangun was really an historical figure, it would be interesting to use him and replace the picture

Sunjong of the Korean Empire.jpg

in the desinfobox. Indeed, this picture resumes all the dynasties by someone that personified a temporary failure rather than anything else. On the contrary, who, better than a founding guy, can personify the Korean dynasties ?

And here, we have a problem. This portrait of the famous Dangun was not painted in 2332 BCE by some of his retainers, but by Chae Yong-sin (who died in 1941). Some more probing traces should be used, if any.

Of course, Queen Seondeok would be a better candidate to personify historicity, power and success. Pldx1 (talk) 22:18, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

$~$

• Have not found any portrait of Seondeok. But Sejong is a second great choice: an Hall of Encyclopedia, whaow !!! Pldx1 (talk) 16:23, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

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Monarchs succession boxes

Hi. Someone added succession boxes to all korean monarchs articles. I find very odd the use of the ,,King/Queen of Korea" title and the use of the syntagm ,,Titles in pretence" for kings of pre-Goryeo periods. Does this monarchs realy used and pretended the title King/Queen of Korea, and to pretended rule all the koreans/Korean Peninsula ?! From what I read, I doubt. Shouldn't this be modified? Here are some examples: 1; 2; 3; 4; 5. Or at the Balhae monarchs, do we know for sure that they were Goguryeo claimants and pretended the same King of Korea title? Ex: 1; 2. Could a connoisseur of history check this? --Daduxing (talk) 17:40, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi. You are totally right. Jumong was not a ruler of Korea in any possible meaning. Describing him as a ruler somewhere south of the Sungari would be better (but perhaps seen as controversial by several sides...). Anyway, these boxes are not here to convey any balanced description of the facts, so that you better be prepared to face a strong opposition from the boxers. Pldx1 (talk) 18:43, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

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Post Korean Empire

Yi Seok is the recognized king. Furthermore, the Imperial Family is constitutionally recognized in the latest 1987 Constitution. Yi Won is not in line to receive the crown. Theoneyihistorian (talk) 23:54, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

References

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Why including fictional rulers/pretenders in this list?

There is a dedicated list for the legendary parts of korean dynasties, so what was the reason for this revert? As there was no rationale given, I'm reverting this change. Best, --Enyavar (talk) 10:36, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Please stop by here and explain your stance on the topic before you revert again... --Enyavar (talk) 17:20, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

More precisely, this list is intended to gather monarchs (Kings and Queens) that actually ruled over one of the Kingdoms of Korea. Pretenders and fictional people have their own lists.Pldx1 (talk) 17:35, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

I'd say we should still make exceptions for both Dangun and Gija, seeing how detailed these two "semi-mythological" figures have been reviewed scholarly. Both uncritical and critical research has been applied. Though maybe we could remove the wikitables, relegating Dangun+Gija to a textual preface to the actual lists. Their supposed successors are nothing but placeholder cut-outs, a link to the "legendary rulers" list is information enough.

...I have no idea what the stance on en-WP is on the articles of List of Gija Joseon monarchs, Template:Gija Joseon monarchs and all included stubs. In de-WP I'd file deletion requests on everything that isn't already described under Gija Joseon and List of legendary monarchs of Korea. --Enyavar (talk) 18:06, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

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