Talk:Gun laws in the United States by state

Carry Permit vs Concealed Carry Permit

Reading down through the list of state laws, it seems rather confusing the way the layout - apparently - distinguishes (or doesn't?) between a concealed carry permit being required, and whether open carry is "permitted". Hell you can see the confusion in the way I just wrote that.

Most of the listings state "Carry Permits Required?". However, I've also run across

• "Carry License Required?"
• "Concealed Carry License Required?"
• "Carry Permits Issued?"
• "Concealed Carry Weapon (CCW) permits required?"
• "License Required for Concealed Carry?"

But the biggest problem comes immediately thereafter in each listing. Right after "Carry Permits Required?", the majority of listings follow it with simply "Open Carry?" (with some saying "Open Carry Permitted?" or "Open Carry Allowed?" etc.).

Setting aside the linguistic problem of "Carry Permit" and "Open Carry Permitted ", the shorthand "Open Carry?" is precisely that - shorthand, and unclear, particularly that in the sense used in most listings, it seems to mean that you may open carry, and you do not require an issued license or permit to do so - so the answer is almost always "Yes", coming right after the 'yes' for "Carry Permit required".

Do you see the problem? It's grossly confusing. I believe that almost all instances of "Carry Permits Required?" actually mean "Concealed Carry Permits Required". Likewise, I believe most "Open Carry?" actually mean "(No) permit required for Open Carry".

For maximum clarity, I believe all should be conformed to:

"Concealed Carry Permit Required?" followed by "Open Carry Permit Required?". This maintains a coherent sensibility to the 'yes' and 'no', rather than being reversed in most cases.

I'm up to the task, though it'll be quite a slog to do it for all 50 states plus territories. But before I do so, I'd want some feedback from my peers. Thanks. Anastrophe (talk) 19:30, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

It's a good question. But, I'm under the impression that in most cases, "Open carry?" means, "Is open carry allowed?". In some states open carry is allowed without a permit (so "yes"), in some states a permit is required (still "yes"), and in some states open carry is not allowed (so "no"). I'm pretty sure that what happened is that the concealed carry entry in most of the tables used to be something like "Concealed carry permitted?" Not so long ago many states allowed concealed carry with a permit, and only a few allowed it without a permit, while some states did not allow it at all. But as of rather recently, all states have some legal provision for concealed carry, either with our without a permit, so a lot but not all of those entries were changed to indicate whether or not a permit is required. I believe that changing the second entry to "Open carry permit required?" would be problematic, since a number of states do not allow open carry. So as a yes or no question, it won't work. So, where do we go from here? I'm not sure. I think it's not critical that all state tables use the same wording for these two entries. On the other hand it might be helpful. One approach would be for the first row to say, "Concealed carry permit required?", and the second row to say "Open carry allowed?". Then for open carry, the answer could be either "allowed with a permit", "allowed without a permit", or "no". I'd like to ponder this further, but that's what I think so far. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:07, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Another approach would be for the first entry to be "Concealed carry allowed?" and the second entry to be "Open carry allowed?" The first answer would be either "allowed with a permit" or "allowed without a permit", and the second answer would be "allowed with a permit", "allowed without a permit", or "no". That would have the advantage of making the two rows consistent with each other. How does that sound? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:13, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Here's yet another idea. The first row could be "Permit required for concealed carry?". Then for the second row, if the state allows open carry, it could be "Permit required for open carry?" But for states that do not allow open carry, the question could be "Open carry allowed?" with an answer of "no". So not all states would be the same, but then each question could have a "yes" or "no" answer. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:24, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

So far I like that last idea the most -- partly because it still allows each row to be answered with "yes" or "no". But I would encourage other editors to share their thoughts. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:35, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

I think the biggest problem is that a binary answer won't fit all questions. There's the particular problem as well of may-issue vs shall-issue, because in - for example - California, for a majority of the state's population, concealed-carry is defacto not allowed at all, because permits are virtually impossible to acquire due to may-issue. Then again, since the vast majority of states are now shall-issue, perhaps may vs shall would be more appropriate as a note, so that each entry isn't burdened with that as a separate question. And as far as open carry, while most states allow it, it's very difficult to actually do it, since almost always someone will freak out if you're walking down the street with an open carry gun and call the cops, so it becomes a relentless hassle to do so.

Yeah, this needs more input. Anastrophe (talk) 22:14, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

the core of the problem is that the state tables are just borrowed from the detailed state articles. The tables are optimized for each state's idiosyncrasies. However, certainly some improvement could be made in many (but perhaps not all) cases to get them to be more similar. Open/Concealed Carry? Prohibited. May issue permit required. Shall issue permit required. Allowed without permit. Allowed without permit but (may/shall) permits offered for reciprocity. That set seems like it covers most cases. For the places like NY/CA, we could perhaps add in restrictive/permissive modifiers in the answer as well. ResultingConstant (talk) 23:06, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

A lot of those important details can be summarized in the Notes column. In many cases they already are. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:59, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I like Mudwater's last suggestion.Terrorist96 (talk) 01:12, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph: You may be interested in this discussion.Terrorist96 (talk) 04:09, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. In general, things should be uniform, however we do need to realize that with 50 States we are going to have many discrepancies and rather than use asterisks, we might just want to change the wording on the column when necessary. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:15, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Row headers for concealed and open carry

Back on January 1st -- see above -- I suggested the following way to standardize the row headers for concealed and open carry: The first row could be "Permit required for concealed carry?". Then for the second row, if the state allows open carry, it could be "Permit required for open carry?" But for states that do not allow open carry, the question could be "Open carry allowed?" with an answer of "no". So not all states would be the same, but then each question could have a "yes" or "no" answer. I think I'm going to go ahead and start changing the state tables that don't already conform to that. But, as several editors have pointed out, there may be some states where this is not the best approach, so we should not strictly enforce this. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:41, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm in the middle of doing this, and I think it's working out quite well. Here are a few notes: (1) In the concealed carry row, I'm putting "N/A" for long guns. (2) I'm trying to use the term "permit" or "license" based on what term the state government uses. (3) Again, I think that standardizing the tables in this way is helpful, but if it's better for a particular state table not to follow this pattern, that's fine, I think. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:34, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Okay, all done. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:56, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Compare in one table

Please, add a comparison in the form of a common table, such or similar:

http://wykop.ginden.pl/gun_law_america.html

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolvverine (talk • contribs) 18:32, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Duty to inform

What is "Duty to inform"? The state articles and Concealed carry in the United States do not explain. – S. Rich (talk) 19:00, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Map of minimum purchase age of long guns

A map of "Minimum age to purchase a long gun by state" was added to the top of the article recently, here. I'm going to remove that, because it gives undue weight to just one of the many aspects of gun laws by state. Though purchase age for long guns is a topic of current discussion, the article should not over-emphasize that subject. And as a secondary issue, that map may not be completely accurate. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 10:00, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't see a real reason to remove it: none of the individual tables offer that info to begin with. Unless someone wants to add that to each and every table, I think the map should remain. I mean "Gun laws in the United States" is whole purpose of the article is it not? So I don't see your angle here. If anything it gives readers a more direct insight before looking at the tables. Maybe a better "solution" would be the map of CCW states instead? It's much more general and common topic in gun ownership communities, since no one walks around in a grocery store with an AR-15, or other rifle. AirNinja (talk) 15:37, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I was planning on making another map for handguns too by the way. Also you could argue that the map on Capital punishment in the United States gives too much emphasis on the aspect of what the status of the penalty is in each state and not the mode of execution, among other things, although I do understand your point. Fluffy89502 (talk) 20:49, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Also the page does not list what the minimum ages to purchase long guns are which is why I added this map in the first place. I came to this page to learn what the minimum ages for that were and could not find it and the information was difficult to find on other sites so I decided to make the map. Fluffy89502 (talk) 20:50, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

@Fluffy89502: I appreciate your efforts, but adding the map gives undue emphasis to just that one aspect of gun laws -- the minimum age for buying rifles or shotguns. So as not to give our readers the mistaken impression that there are one, or a few, gun laws that are more important than others, it's better for this article not to include any maps. As for the idea of adding the minimum age to purchase or possess long guns or handguns to the summary tables for the state articles, that would be fine, in my opinion. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:48, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Another thing: That map has some minimum ages below 18, but according to this ATF page, the minimum age is 18 under federal law. So 18 would seem to be the national minimum age. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 21:59, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi. It's me again. I've gone ahead and added "minimum age to purchase or possess" to the state summary table for Illinois, here. Edited to add: In the map it says that the minimum age to purchase a long gun in Illinois is 21, but that's incorrect. Note that people under the age of 21 can get a FOID card (state permit to possess) with permission from their parent or guardian. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:11, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

It may be 18 to posses under federal law but local police are state police officers. They only enforce state law and if there is no minimum age to possess a gun under state law that officer will not do anything since they do not have the authority to enforce federal law and vice versa. Fluffy89502 (talk) 23:55, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Also I just finished uploading a map on handgun purchase age and finished but have yet to upload a map on long gun possession age. Fluffy89502 (talk) 23:57, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

The Map

The very first Map should be Updated after New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen, there is no May-issue States anymore. 67.170.255.241 (talk) 10:26, 30 June 2022 (UTC)