Talk:György Ligeti

Pronunciation

it would be very useful to show the correct anglicized or native pronunciation of ligeti's name. "g" hard, soft or fricative? accent on first, middle or last syllable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Macevoy (talk • contribs) 02:22, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Pronounced like "George". Last name does not rhyme with "spaghetti". The accent is on the first syllable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.31.253 (talk) 00:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

According to forvo, the last name does rhyme with spaghetti: the accent is on the second syllable. 79.43.69.199 (talk) 09:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Who is this "forvo", and does he speak Hungarian? I think not. In that language, all words are accented on the first syllable, including "spagetti" (= Italian "spaghetti" which, of course, does not stress the initial syllable as Hungarian does).—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:35, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Google is your friend: it is http://www.forvo.com/search/ligeti/ but I have no idea about its authority as a source. I'm also not sure that "spaghetti" is all that useful a reference anyway, because I suspect that that too depends upon who is saying it. Even so, I don't find the Forvo examples all that compelling - there's a bit of stress on the second but plenty on the first in most of their examples so it is not cut-and-dried. Finally, I'd also always thought he was first-syllable-stressed too. I have good reason to believe that this is correct, but my reasons are not citeable and would be WP:OR if challenged! (They're still right, mind you ...) Best wishes DBaK (talk) 17:56, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know what you mean. This unreliable source, for example, cannot be cited here.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:23, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Ha! Yes, quite! :) DBaK (talk) 09:25, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

It's not George! d͡ʒ is too hard, d͡ʑ too. It's ɟ. These three sounds are very easy to distinguish if you really want and put some effort into it. Don't be ignorant and pay respect to the original pronunciation. It's possible for everyone. --2.245.161.247 (talk) 21:00, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Heat

"The first movement of the Cello Concerto was also used in the Michael Mann 1995 crime film Heat." ( - Anon. n.d.... Amongst others, this website gives the Wikipedia article on Ligeti as a link. No specific source for the claim about Michael Mann's film is given, which leaves open the possibility that it was taken from Wikipedia and is therefore a circular self-reference.)

That Anon n.d. source was in fact this. The suggested IMDB source has been discounted as unreliable. Curiously, the excerpt is not included in the film soundtrack. Is this source any better? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure about that Pytheas site, which is why I asked for another opinion, rather than just deleting it (and I put the same flag on this linked entry in the list of sources). It does not say where it got the information, for this or anything else in the article, but becuase it lists this Wikipedia article amongst the external links, it looks like it might be tainted. The Mooviees site is repulsive in appearance, but at least gives its source of information as the film credits. I would say it is the preferable source under the circumstances, though I'm not sure whether it might be tarred with the same brush as the IMDb.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:34, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes hard to tell , isn't it. Unless we get a copy of the film and watch the credits. Next time I see Michael, I'll be sure to ask him.... Martinevans123 (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC) (I can't believe that Mooviees has got a detail like this wrong!)

Perhaps it is very naïve of me, but I have never understood why movie credits cannot be cited on Wikipedia. I mean, we can cite magazine articles, books, and all sorts of other print media, and even documents on online websites—heck, we can even cite the New York Times—but evidently it takes special skills to read the type in movie credits, so we need the help of professional film critics, academics, and the good folks at Mooviees to interpret them for us. On the other hand, how is reading movie credits different from getting a copy of a book and reading it?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. It's quite an anomaly of Biblical proportions! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, I have sometimes experienced similar anomalies while squinting at teeny-tiny lettering in film credits displayed on my home television screen instead of the cinerama-theater screens for which they were evidently intended. As long as I have got your attention, you asked in your most recent edit summary how it is that "widely regraded as" should be thought of a WP:PEA. Perhaps you are right, and I should have described it instead as weasel wording. My point was that the source only spoke for itself, and did not assert that anyone other than the writer held that opinion. Of course, I have no way of knowing either what Cummings's girth might be or how far he casts his gaze, so perhaps it was meant as an objective literal description rather than a metaphoric one, but I don't think that we Wikipedia editors are permitted to assume any such thing.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I imagine his girth might also be of Biblical proportions, but you are quire right, again - that's no excuse! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:21, 22 October 2013 (UTC) well, actually, he looks rather slim!

Thanks for the evidence. I rest my case!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 03:14, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I was wondering if imdb could be used as a source? I noticed Ligeti given credit in the soundtrack section: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113277/soundtrack — Preceding unsigned comment added by Overhere2000 (talk • contribs) 14:48, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:External links/Perennial websites#IMDb. Toccata quarta (talk) 16:36, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Removed template

@Jerome Kohl: I see that you've removed the template {{Modernist composers}} using the justification "-Ligeti is cited as a postmodernist, not a modernist". While this is true, Ligeti is cited as a postmodernist, he is also cited in sources as a modernist, for example in "The Pleasure of Modernist Music: Listening, Meaning, Intention, Ideology By Arved Mark Ashby". And this is true of a lot of avant-garde composers, such as Berio, Cage, Reich, Stockhausen etc., who are also cited as being both modernist and postmodernist. See Postmodern music. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 17:55, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you are quite right. Since I am the editor largely responsible not only for the Postmodern music article, but also for the one on Modernism (music), and most of the entries in the List of modernist composers, I am fully aware of the fact that nearly every composer working since about 1930 has been pigeonholed in both camps at one time or another. Since I see that there is now a new List of postmodernist composers (with exactly one name in it), and there are now categories for both modernist and postmodernist composers (as of last week there was only the one for modernists), I propose that both categories be added to Ligeti's biographical article, as well as to the articles for all the composers found (with reliable sources, of course) on both of those lists. It was the imbalance I was objecting to, not the foolish category.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:08, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

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Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of György Ligeti: 2009-01-22== This is an assessment of article György Ligeti by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? missing personal details ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? missing personal details ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. List is presumed to be complete. ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Little popular reception. Critical approval mentioned at one point. Influences should be integrated. ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) One picture; external sound clips. More images needed. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article sources not listed; 3 inline citations. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Lead is short; Influences section should be integrated into music discussion. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE) ===Summary=== This is mostly a pretty good article, giving a good professional and musical summary of the man and his work. It suffers from a number of serious defects: it is almost entirely unsourced -- no reference sources are listed there is no mention beyond early life of personal details (marriage, children, whatever) there is no mention or discussion of the popular reception of his music, and little critical commentary This is a weak B-class article. Magic♪piano 15:16, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 15:16, 22 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 16:54, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Increase the number of notable works mentioned in lead section, perhaps?

I think that the lead section should mention more than Atmosphères, Le Grand Macabre, and Stanley Kubrick's use of his music. He is also renowned, after all, for works such as Poème symphonique, the Requiem, Continuum, String Quartet No. 2, the Viola Sonata, and of course the études. AndrewOne (talk) 08:48, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure I would use the word "renowned" in connection with the Poème symphonique, but I agree that the Requiem, Second String Quartet, and the Études should be mentioned. Continuum and the Viola Sonata do not strike me as being in quite the same category. In fact, I would say that the Bagatelles for Wind Quintet (and perhaps Musica ricercata, from which they are drawn), the Horn Trio, and the Chamber Concerto are more familiar to most listeners. Perhaps Artikulation also deserves mention.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:44, 28 December 2018 (UTC)