Talk:Hades/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Minthe and Leuce

There is an old myth where Minthe was transformed not by Persephone but by Demeter.

"Mint (Mintha), men say, was once a maid beneath the earth, a Nymphe of Kokytos, and she lay in the bed of Aidoneus; but when he raped the maid Persephone from the Aitnaian hill [Mount Aitna in Sicily], then she complained loudly with overweening words and raved foolishly for jealousy, and Demeter in anger trampled upon her with her feet and destroyed her. For she had said that she was nobler of form and more excellent in beauty than dark-eyed Persephone and she boasted that Aidoneus would return to her and banish the other from his halls: such infatuation leapt upon her tongue. And from the earth spray the weak herb that bears her name." - Oppian, Halieutica 3.485

From: http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheMinthe.html

In Greco-Roman mythology, Leuce (Ancient Greek: Λεύκη, "White", specifically "White Poplar") was the most beautiful of the nymphs and a daughter of Oceanus. Pluto fell in love with her and abducted her to the underworld. She lived out the span of her life in his realm, and when she died, the god sought consolation by creating a suitable memorial of their love: in the Elysian Fields where the pious spend their afterlife, he brought a white tree into existence. It was this tree with which Heracles crowned himself to celebrate his return from the underworld.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuce_(mythology)

• Aidoneus is a name for Hades.

Gigei (talk) 12:02, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Hades is the english given name of Hades and so Aidoneus is not the english given name of Hades. The name of Hades may appear in other languages as extactly typed as "Hades", but that exactly typed name of "Hades" is not exactly typed that way for all the languages on earth. It is better for you to find out where the "sounding name" of "Aidoneus" is languaged from before making it look like the englishly given name of Hades is also the englishly given name of Aidoneus too!!! Let's not give Hades any more english names shall we!!?

• What on earth are you talking about? I am talking about Minthe and Demeter, I am not asking to add names of Hades. You seem to be confused. Gigei (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:09, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Remove the below?

I am wondering if all of the below rant ought to be removed per WP:SOAP. His only point about the article is to take issue with the infobox line reading "God of the Underworld", but his reasoning is faulty. Our article text calls him "god of the underworld" (small letters) as this is the correct noun used in English to refer to polytheistic deities, or gods, such as Hades. The etymology of "god" is from Germanic pagan beliefs and is not even considered the name of the Judaeo-Christian God, except in English. I'm not sure "god of the underworld" would look right in the infobox with lowercase letters, just because it is capitalised for style is a pretty silly reason to take offense, since no one is seriously liable to confuse Hades and God as a result of this. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:42, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

• Agree SpigotMap 14:46, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Hades children

Can not anyone write about hades daughter? and that her name is Macraia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by SabNik (talk • contribs) 17:35, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

See Macaria for sources to check info here. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:04, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

merge with Pluto

It appears that Hades and Pluto were the same deity from the beginning and not seperate deities that were associated though interpretatio romana. Pluto (or Pluton) was just another name the Greeks used for Hades (feeling it was less frightening) and when the Romans adopted the Greek gods, they exclusively called him that. This is similar to Dionysis and Bacchus and we don't have a seperate article for the latter. 24.180.173.157 (talk) 00:48, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but you don't have consensus for the redirect. We can't use what happens in one article to justify what happens in another. As to Bacchus and Dionysus, we'd benefit from separate articles. Below, I've posted a copy of my response, made on your talk page. As the redirect caused loss of article material formerly under Pluto (mythology), I'll restore it by reverting; unless you do it first.

Couple of things to consider: assuming you'd had consensus, did you merge the articles correctly? What happened to the content and history of Pluto (mythology) when you redirected? Just as importantly (from my point of view), Roman and Greek religion is much more than names, identities and mythologies; it's also socio-political context. Roman cults are not "the same as" Greek, even for deities with the same name; certainly not in the archaic and Republican eras though under Empire forms of univeral cult emerge. And even these have strong regional variation. Haploidavey (talk) 01:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Questions pertaining to distinctions between Hades and Plouton (Pluto) have been addressed in a revision of the article Pluto (mythology). Cynwolfe (talk) 19:32, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protection?

The last 50 edits have resulted in almost no change, but lots of work for alert adults. Can this much-damaged article get some protection?--Wetman (talk) 20:58, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Many more such edits of late, so I'll ask for semi-protection. Haploidavey (talk) 23:01, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Grim Reaper

I changed "Hades is often mistaken for the Grim Reaper" to "Hades is often mistaken for the personification of death". I believe that's probably what whoever wrote that sentence was trying to convey, not that he is *literally* mistaken for the depiction of death as a reaper holding a scythe. The "Grim Reaper" depiction of course came many centuries later. But the point is that even in Ancient Greek times, Hades was not "death personified" -- that was Thanatos, as mentioned later in the article. -- Tim314 (talk) 19:24, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

• Maybe the person meant in popular culture -Angel David (talk) 11:34, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Children = Zagreus?

Zagreus was the son of Zeus and Demeter or Persephone hence the "z" and "eus." He was not the son of Hades. -Angel David (talk) 11:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I doubt your etymology, but I think you're right about the parents of Zagreus, who if I'm not mistaken is mainly a figure of the mystery religions (where Hades is far more likely to refer to the place, not the deity). I've just spent a couple of months off and on revising Pluto (mythology), and I wouldn't want to hazard a guess on what lies behind this — perhaps the figure of Zeus Chthonios. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Orpheus and Eurydice

Can anyone produce an ancient source that names the ruler of the underworld as Hades in the Orpheus and Eurydice tale? I've only been able to find him named as Plouton. Keep in mind that English translators often regard the two names as interchangeable, and translate Hades as Pluto and vice versa. There are in fact clear patterns of usage of the names. Plouton doesn't appear in Greek literature before the Athenian playwrights of the Classical era (that is, not in Homer, Hesiod, or the Archaic lyric poets). In Orphic texts and inscriptions associated with the mystery religions, Hades is always the place, and Plouton always the consort of Persephone. It seems likely, therefore, that in the Orpheus tale, Hades would be the place, and Pluto the king. Cynwolfe (talk) 02:09, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

On second thought, I deleted this unsourced section. It also stated that "Hades showed mercy only once," which is untrue, as the tales of Protesilaus and Alcestis show. Orpheus probably needs to be in the article, but presented with sources. Cynwolfe (talk) 03:13, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Sources missing

This article needs a few sources. Let me list two:

1. "One ancient source says that he possessed the Cap of invisibility."

Which one?

2. "Another version is that she was metamorphosed by Persephone into a white poplar tree while standing by the pool of Memory."

What's the source for this version?

ICE77 (talk) 03:26, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

These are both instances where the sources name the ruler of the underworld as Pluto, not Hades. In developing the article on Pluto, I've become convinced that it's useful and informative to distinguish between the two, but sometimes difficult if you're working only in English, as translators will use the two names interchangeably. I found that after the influence of the Eleusinian Mysteries reached a certain point (sometime in the 5th century BC), it becomes uncommon to find Hades as the name of the god; it's almost always used for the name of the underworld as a place, beginning in the Classical period with the Greek dramatists and then Plato. I deleted the reference to Leukê, which seems to appear only in a Latin source and where the name is given as Pluto. See also Pluto (mythology)#The helmet of invisibility. Cynwolfe (talk) 04:09, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

My questions were about where that information is found: Homer, Pausanias, Hesiod? That's what I meant.

ICE77 (talk) 01:30, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I was meaning to say that if you're interest in tracking down the sources see the section on the helmet in the Pluto article, as linked above. The story of Leuca is from Servius's commentary on Vergil; see Leuce (mythology) for the notes. Cynwolfe (talk) 03:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Coins

Where did the Greeks put the coins to pay Charon? In the article it says in the mouth, but I thought it was on the eyes... VenomousConcept (talk) 11:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

This is covered in detail at Charon's obol (which is linked from this article). Haploidavey (talk) 11:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Heracles/Hercules Section

Hey, I was checking out the Hercules section, and it uses Hades alot. I think sometimes it means the person, like Hades allowing Hercules to borrow Cerberus, and then the Underworld, as Hercules leading Cerberus out of a Greek God is just weird. Could somebody replace Hades the place with The Underworld instead? --JezzDawga (talk) 05:29, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

hows about its alls

so, I jussted woldanted tol sayyy hai. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.7.90 (talk) 16:04, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Agesander (Hades)

Could go into a section about various names of Hades. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 11:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

That seems a reasonable suggestion. Haploidavey (talk) 11:52, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree. I think you might be safe in going ahead with the merge. Be sure to request merge history, since that little Agesander article did have a certain amount of care expended on it. Cynwolfe (talk) 11:59, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Ok, done. Two questions left: 1) do I now AfD Agesander (Hades)? I redirected it here, but that redirect has little sense since it's an orphan (I found it through Category:Orphaned articles, which I was cleaning up). 2) Some info from the Cult subsection may have to be moved to the "Names and epiphets" subsection, but when I tried this, I was lacking a source for the implicit claim that Hades' name was taboo among the Greeks. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 21:45, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

"Taboo" is probably too strong; "Hades" itself seems to be a kind of euphemism, understood (as by Plato) as the "hidden one". You don't want to delete the redirect, since it is a name for Hades that someone might be looking up. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:17, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

(e/c) It seems a history merge is impractical, because the articles have developed in parallel rather than in tandem; but an explanatory line can be put into the history. I agree that "Agesander (Hades)" - even if a formerly orphaned article - isn't an entirely unlikely search term. And the redirect preserves the history of the smaller, merged article. Agreed, too, on Hades as possible euphemism. Haploidavey (talk) 22:29, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

REVELATION 20 and the LAKE of FIRE

Under the section Judeo-Christian Hades- Rev 20:13-14 is referred to in a way that leads the reader to believe that the dead will not be thrown into the Lake of fire. Earlier in the passage the story of Lazarus and Dives (Luke 16:19-31) is used to prove the point that Hades is not considered a place of torment in Christianity. Verse 13 of Revelation does say that the dead are "given up" by the sea, death, and Hades. Verse 13 goes on to say that each of the dead were judged for their deeds. And yes, verse 14 does say that death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. The point trying to be made in this section is that the dead were no longer part of death or Hades and therefore received no torment. However, this is not the whole story. The previous and following verses clarify this. Therefore Rev 20:13-14 has been taken out of context. Verse 12 speaks of all the dead standing before the throne, books are opened where everything has been recorded. The dead are/were judged. Verse 13 is not about chronological order but rather en extension of vs. 12, reiterating how all the dead had been "given up" - made to stand before the throne and restates that all were judged. Verse 14 says that death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire - which is the second death. Verse 15 is the text that has been ignored in this section concerning Judeo-Christian Hades. In vs 15 it says that anyone whose name was not in the Book of Life was thrown into the Lake of Fire. Hence, the dead also face the Lake of Fire that death and Hades faced. Many see Revelation as an allegory and Hades as allegorical rather than a literal place of torment. In any case, the dead whose names are not in the Book of Life are judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire where death and Hades also receive their punishment. The Judeo-Christian Hades section is inaccurate.K.J.Grey (talk) 05:55, 20 January 2014 (UTC)K.J.Grey

Genealogy Section

I'm not sure why there are black bars that obscure some of the names in the Genealogy Section of the article. Silenceatl (talk) 13:46, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Luke 16

undid this, ... given that mortalists have been explaining the rich man and Lazarus as a parable since the 17th Century we ought to be able to show this from print sources rather than websites. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

and removed again In ictu oculi (talk) 07:59, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree basically that maybe better sources are desirable, but there is such a thing as being too over-scrupulous disregarding contextual points. The point of the statements in the paragraph were what SOME PROFESSED CHRISTIANS BELIEVE AND TEACH about soul mortality and the "rich man and Lazarus" being a parable and not a true historical account...and that those are the views given. They are sources that are arguably "reliable" in giving their point of view in that specific belief and context. Meaning that those websites that are being challenged and removed were put together by people IN THE THEOLOGICAL FIELD...and were not slapped together by some guy who runs a pizza place down the street. There are degrees of "reliability". My position is that those refs that you removed were ok enough in proving the point that some Christians and theologians believe and teach what is being stated in the paragraph in the article. Regards. Gabby Merger (talk) 21:10, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2014

Hades' name in Roman Mythology was Pluto. Orcus was the god of punishment for broken oaths (who lived in the Underworld) and Dis Pater was the former leader of the Underworld, who was subdued by Pluto/Hades. 179.177.177.230 (talk) 17:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as this is almost exactly what the article already states:-

Later, the Greeks started referring to the god as Plouton (see below), which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus

If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 17:54, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2015

hi so this page is missing one of the siblings. Poseidon. I don't know if you know but he is his Brother. I was wondering if you could add Poseidon to the siblings list? Geoffreyb2015 (talk) 19:12, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Not done: From what I can see, Poseidon is already listed. --I am k6ka ^{Talk to me!} _{See what I have done} 19:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Notes on Inclusion of Non-Greek Edits

I deleted lengthy passages irrelevant to the topic of this article. There exist other pages (linked through the disambiguation notice at the top) for concepts in Judaeo-Christian religions rendered as "Hades," but these usages are derived from Greek use of "Hades" to mean "the abode of the dead." That itself, as this article points out, comes from the name of the god. Since this article is about the god in Hellenic religion and mythology, disambiguation should be sufficient. It is generally considered appropriate not only to keep articles on topic, but to keep bleed-over between religions to a minimum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iro~enwiki (talk • contribs) 23:59, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

There is no appropriateness at all in "avoiding bleed-over between religions" and it's rather obnoxious to suggest there should be. If a topic (god comes to mind) is shared among religions, then that topic's article should discuss it within the contexts of those separate religions.

That said, this article is not about a topic at all germane to the Christian and Jewish sections and, from here on out, restoring them should be seen as vandalism. This article is not about the word "Hades" but about the figure "Hades", which has no relevance at all to the Christian use of the term. — LlywelynII 08:25, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Hades in Christian theology

This is apparently a running issue for this article (see above), but the paragraph in the lead section dealing with the place Hades in Christian theology has no business whatsoever in this article. Not as a hater on Christianity: it's just entirely off topic. It probably does belong in the lead of the Greek underworld article but, here, the only appropriate place for discussing it is as a headnote dab pointing to the right article. Personally, I think other uses covers it, but since this seems to be a long-running issue, I'll try a longer compromise note. — LlywelynII 08:08, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Wow. Just saw there are entire sections on the location for no apparent reason. A quick overview of the domain of the Greek god belong on the Greek god's page. Jewish and Christian views on the domain belong on its completely separate page. I don't want to blank content, so I'll just leave them here for later editors to merge with Greek underworld, sheol, and Hades in Christianity. They are commented out below:

The section on Charon is also off-topic for this page. Commented out below: A quick mention and link to Charon is all Hades needs. Further detail belongs at Greek underworld.

Kindly assist with removing any future restoration of this off-topic material here. (Alternatively, if editors really think that the Christian "Hades" is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the name, come in with a move discussion and some statistics to back up that idea. I certainly think of the god and Greek location first, but maybe we have a lot of theologians visiting the page.) — LlywelynII 08:20, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Hades was very feared there is only one known temple built to honor him and it was used by secret cults— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bubblenuts (talk • contribs)

Do you have a professionally published mainstream academic source for that claim? Ian.thomson (talk) 05:33, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2015

One of his symbols is not a drinking horn, it is a cornucopia. http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Haides.html Gabe Apap (talk) 12:25, 4 October 2015 (UTC) ref></ref> Gabe Apap (talk) 12:25, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for the reference to support your request - Arjayay (talk) 14:47, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia Editing Project

Hey all! I am editing this wiki page for my class. I'm working on these sections: Name, God of the Underworld, and Artistic Representations. I might be adding a bit more to the introduction, but those are the areas where the majority of the changes will be. Thanks!

Jfeiks (talk) 16:39, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Question of Hades' Origin

I had previously found an article stating that Hades, or the general figure we associate him with, was "born" by Homeric Literature. Unfortunatley, I lost it, and so am wondering if anyone knows what I'm talking about, or if someone could shed light on the origin of this deity. Jfeiks (talk) 20:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Symbols error

There is a definite error in the symbols category.One of Hades's symbols is the drinking horn, not the cornucopia. The cornucopia is generally associated with the gods of the harvest, prosperity, or spiritual abundance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Siren Losenso (talk • contribs) 13:08, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 December 2016

I need to make a minor edit on the first paragraph Grimmek1 (talk) 19:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. 🔯 Sir Joseph ^🍸(talk) 20:30, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2017

Novemberyoloyolo (talk) 16:40, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Although Hades is commonly ma staked as a bad guy he actually isn't like a "villain" there just commonly ma staked as bad Hades is good except for the Porspone incident and its his job to take care of the underworld

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 16:42, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 January 2019

kkk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.87.164.7 (talk) 20:56, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2019

I have prior knowledge to add to the article ItsHunterBTW (talk) 19:23, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Favonian (talk) 19:26, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Mint

change ((mint)) to ((Mentha|mint))

 Done – Thjarkur (talk) 15:10, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

mythology behind persephone and hades wrong

in the original myth, persephone finds the entrance to the underworld and essentially just refuses to leave out of choice. hades doesn’t abduct her and her name is changed from kore (little girl / maiden) to persephone (chaos bringer / bringer of death) by zeus as he can’t get her to leave. she is forced to spend 6 months with her mother by zeus and 6 months in the underworld because she’s so badass that no one can make her leave. Hadesdidntforcepersephone (talk) 10:58, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

What's the source on that? Because the Homeric Hymn to Demeter disagrees strongly. 75.84.244.34 (talk) 20:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

That's right. Paul August ☎ 20:43, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Leuce

In Greco-Roman mythology, Leuce (Ancient Greek: Λεύκη, "White", specifically "White Poplar") was the most beautiful of the nymphs and a daughter of Oceanus. Pluto fell in love with her and abducted her to the underworld. She lived out the span of her life in his realm, and when she died, the god sought consolation by creating a suitable memorial of their love: in the Elysian Fields where the pious spend their afterlife, he brought a white tree into existence. It was this tree with which Heracles crowned himself to celebrate his return from the underworld.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuce_(mythology) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.18.231.245 (talk) 03:02, 10 May 2020 (UTC)