Talk:Hàm Thuận – Đa Mi hydroelectric power stations

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Ham Thuan – Da Mi hydroelectric power stations. There seems to be consensus that the wording is best; the change of capitalization is obvious per WP:MOS and the pluralization of station to stations seems uncontroversial, and supported. The principal opposer to moving to the Vietnamese spelling, Kauffner, seems to agree with the wording ("Hydropower Plant" and "hydroelectric power stations" being largely synonymous, the latter having more support and being MOS-compliant), but strongly disagrees on using the Vietnamese spelling; I understand these concerns and believe that per VIETCON, specifically that not using the Viet alphabet makes the title easier to use, that it doesn't make it hard to discern the subject, and that online searches are at best inconsistent in their use of the alphabet's particular characters; also, I note the spelling of the district article's title, Ham Thuan Bac. I will agree with Itsmejudith's statement that the diacritics/no diacritics is an issue larger than the article itself and could merit broader discussion. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 10:33, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

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Hamthuan-Dami Hydroelectric Power Station → ? –

The current title of this article probably has to be fixed; however, I am not sure what is the best name for it. It has following issues:

• It is not a single station but a complex of two stations. Therefore, instead of 'Station' it would be better to use 'Complex', 'Cascade' or at least plural 'Stations'.
• As the name is a combination of two locations, it should use n-dash instead of hyphen.
• Although we have WP:VIETCON for the Vietnamese names, it is still somehow controversial issue. Potential variations are: Hamthuan–Dami, Ham Thuan – Da Mi, or Hàm Thuận – Đa Mi.

Beagel (talk) 09:18, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support "Hàm Thuận – Đa Mi..." see below later edit for plural issue - per 27 majority of recent RfC + WP:VN geonames RMs for the past 2 years. These are the accurate names of these two communes of Hàm Thuận Bắc district, cf American charity website, and the hyphen follows WP as the normal configuration. Note by WP:RS requirement that sources must be "reliable for the statement being made made" that electric power sources with no Vietnamese fonts are reliable for electric power, but not reliable sources for how to use Vietnamese fonts. The "Đ" is particulary important, without it Đa Mi is read as "Yammy." Also in countries with non-Asian people we spell their power plants correctly: Krčić Hydroelectric Power Plant (Croatia), Kárahnjúkar Hydropower Plant (Iceland), Pilmaiquén Hydroelectric Plant (Chile), Čapljina Hydroelectric Power Station (Czech Republic), Pļaviņas Hydroelectric Power Station (Latvia), etc.

As far as "Station" or "Complex" this isn't controversial, but "Complex" would be more accurate. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:33, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The Vietnamese words should be separate syllables, not run together, which seems to be just a mistake. Is "power stations", plural, a possibility? Itsmejudith (talk) 23:07, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• I support the above Vietnamese name usage and reasoning. As far as "complex" vs. "station(s)", I don't think it is too unusual for two or more power plants on the same river or hydraulic system to be under a single common name. Entracque Power Plant as an example. Looking at this system on Google Earth, it seems that the Da Mi plant is downstream of the Ham Thuan reservoir but not along the La Nga River channel. Water is diverted from a western portion of the lake to the new Da Mi reservoir which is on a much smaller river or creek. This creek eventually connects back to the La Nga River. I wouldn't consider it a cascade along the same river. "Power station" could refer to two stations which are connected in a system and work off each other. The Da Mi reservoir's main purpose is likely just to regulate the direct outflows from the Ham Thuan station then produce more power. It is hard to find a good common name for this one and I think both plural and singular could work fine but I lean towards singular. The two plants are separate but they were built as one project and the Da Mi couldn't exist without the Ham Thuan because it is not on the La Nga River.--NortyNort (Holla) 15:43, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. I am personally not in favour of the singular 'station' but your arguments make a sense. Beagel (talk) 18:21, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Nhà máy (plant/s) Thủy điện (water-electric) does not distinguish singular or plural but in terms of what is meaningful evidently a Highbeam article like "Twin hydro plants hailed as solution to power shortage." 6 Nov 2000 – "The combined power stations of Da Mi and Ham Thuan, on the La Nga river, are nearing completion and are scheduled to become operational ... Da Nhim-Ham Thuan-Da Mi Hydropower Company ..." demonstrates that "twin..plants" "combined..stations" is not truly singular nor independently plural. Consequently I would prefer Beagel's initial suggestion "Complex" as being supported by Mitsuo Sato, Asian Development Bank 1997 and BBC Summary of world broadcasts 1998, but equally important as being intelligible to the general reader, but would also support Itsmejudith "Stations" as being clear and found in the Project descriptions. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I think "stations" is fine. I'm not too much of a stickler about that. I think what is really important is the general name. I wish every power administration or company would give clear uniform names...<sigh>.--NortyNort (Holla) 02:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

The Vietnamese name of this complex is Nhà máy Thủy điện Đa Nhim – Hàm Thuận – Đa Mi, according to VietnamNet and Tuoi Tre. Vietnamese Wiki is not an RS. It shouldn't matter what the Vietnamese name is. We should follow the English-language sources, which I list below. Kauffner (talk) 19:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. Thanh Nien says "Da Nhim – Ham Thuan – Da Mi Hydropower Plant", VNN gives Da Nhim-Ham Thuan-Da Mi hydro-power plant, and Vietnam Investment Review says "Da Nhim-Ham Thuan-Da Mi hydropower plant". Tuoi Tre does not mention the facility, but does give "Da Nhim-Ham Thuan-Da Mi Hydropower Company". There has been no vote to support making a name up and then describing the made up name as "correct" or "accurate". Kauffner (talk) 10:35, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

That's because those machine (?) translated and font-stripped ASCII htmls from Vietnamese language sources are talking about the operating company, "the opco," and yes the same company does also operate the old Đa Nhim Hydroelectric Power Station (1964). Nevertheless neither en.wp nor vi.wp have articles about the opco. Opcos come and go and usually aren't that notable, this is just a subsidiary company of EVN. The actual hydro complexes themselves have separate articles for vi:Nhà máy thủy điện Đa Nhim (completed 1964) and the new vi:Nhà máy thủy điện Hàm Thuận – Đa Mi (completed 2001). As far as one can tell the 1964 and 2001 projects are operationally distinct. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:09, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

There is just a confusion of the power station and the operating company. That's true that the name of the operating company includes also Da Nhim as that hydrostation is operated by the same company. However, this article is about the hydrostation(s) and not about the company which is just an unit of EVN. Da Nhim is a separate power station, Ham Thuan and Da Mi are also two stations but technologically they create a unified complex. Beagel (talk) 18:21, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

That's nice, but it's not your job to name the complex. The media consistently runs the names of the three stations together. Kauffner (talk) 19:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

They run these three names together when they talk about the operating company. If they took about the power stations, they name all these separately or name together just these two ones which creates an unified commplex. E.g. this news uses three names together for the company name while operated power plants are listed separately. Also, the Vietnam National Committee on Large Dams and Water Resources Development refers to that as Ham Thuan - Da Mi Hydropower Project while talking about the complex of these two stations.[1] Beagel (talk) 20:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Do you want move this article to "Ham Thuan - Da Mi Hydropower Plant", the name used by your second source? That's fine with me. Kauffner (talk) 21:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

And while we're at it shall we strip accents off all the Czech, Croatian, Latvian hydroplants and dams down to "Krcic Hydroelectric Power Plant" (1x GB source) based on the same disregard for WP:RS? Kauffner, you have no interest in energy articles, you have never edited any of these articles, much less been inside a hydroelectric station, your only interest in this RM is the same disruptive campaign you have been waging against the Vietnamese alphabet for the last 18 months. As far as I can see your only contribution to Category:Hydroelectric power stations in Vietnam was on 23 February 2012‎ to strip the name from energy editor User:Rehman's article creation Hòa Bình Dam contrary to geo name RM results, and without even the courtesy of leaving a note with the article creator or on the Talk page. Now please stop it. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, this isn't exactly a classical music article, is it? You've been following me around where ever I edit for six months now. As above post confirms, it's obvious that your primary interest in Vietnam-related articles is to get back at me for who knows what. Titles in English Wiki should be based on English-language RS, not do-it-yourself translations from Vietnamese Wiki. Kauffner (talk) 04:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

For your information I worked on energy projects in Vietnam in the 1990s. You should explain your move to User:Rehman. Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 04:55, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Just in case you thinking of telling me any more "information" of this kind, I wish to state that I already know way more about you than I'd like to. Kauffner (talk) 12:35, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Here is the RFP that was sent out by the power company when they were looking for a contractor. It gives the name as "Ham Thuan-Da Mi hydroelectric power plant." Bloomberg, cited in the article, gives "Da Nhim - Ham Thuan - Da Mi HydroPower Plant." Britannica and other encyclopedias don't use Vietnamese diacritics either, so there is no basis to claim that a source without such diacritics is of lower quality. I cited news stories in the Vietnamese English-language press, not machine translations. These stories were written by Vietnamese authors, people whose jobs entail knowing how to to spell Vietnamese names in English. To set your own homespun name above these sources is quite patronizing. Kauffner (talk) 11:54, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

The diacritics/no diacritics issue is a) not very important and b) not something to settle here. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:08, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

My preference is Hàm Thuận – Đa Mi hydroelectric power stations. Diacritics because that is accurate for Vietnamese proper names that are not naturalised into English. nbsp rather than hyphen as I believe that is preferred in MoS, although I'm not 100% on that. Hydroelectric power sounds more formal than hydropower. Stations because there are two, and that avoids using "complex". But the only crucial bit is not to run the syllables together. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

"Hàm Thuận – Đa Mi hydroelectric power stations" -wikipedia googles up no hits whatsoever. Try "Da Nhim – Ham Thuan – Da Mi Hydropower Plant" -wikipedia instead. Kauffner (talk) 22:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

There aren't exactly a lot of ghits for any of the options. The main purpose of the title is for readers to find the article. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Support Hàm Thuận – Đa Mi hydroelectric power stations exactly as per Itsmejudith. With regard also to NortyNort's comments and nom Beagel's "or at least plural 'Stations'". In ictu oculi (talk) 04:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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