Talk:Hans Litten

Description

The article states, "From Sonnenberg he passed to the notorious Sachsenhausen, where his treatment was later described by an eyewitness to his mother." Perhaps someone could describe this treatment in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Renaldi99 (talk • contribs) 18:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It's in there now. Marrante (talk) 14:18, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

"Jewish"

If that is the case, the article makes no effort to demonstrate it.
He is a Lutheran with a Lutheran mother. So, prima facie, he is definitely not Jewish.
He takes some interest in his father's family background. So? That does not change his religion.
Varlaam (talk) 23:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

BBC identifies him as a Jew. The sources included in the wiki article seems to me quite good though. I wonder what are Wikipedia policies when news agencies like BBC get something wrong utterly wrong. --Dia^ (talk) 06:08, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that the word Jewish is used both for religion and, particularly by the Nazis, for ethnicity. Hans Litten fell into the Nazi definition through his father, so as the Nazis considered him to be a Jew the BBC are not entirely wrong. It would have been clearer to use more words to say "classified by the Nazis as a Jew". Jim Craigie (talk) 12:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but where is written that the Nazis classified him ad Jew? The Nuremberg Laws were promulgated in 1935, and even the Civil Service Law did not come in to power until April 1933. By that time he was already in jail. --Dia^ (talk) 15:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

In the BBC documentary Hans Litten vs Adolf Hitler: To Stop A Tyrant it is repeatedly stated that Hans Litten was Jewish, so this is presumably the opinion of both Benjamin Carter Hett, the programmes's historical advisor and author of Crossing Hitler, and Mark Hayhurst, the programmes's writer and producer. This documentary says that Hans Litten converted back to Judaism. Prof Stefanie Schüler-Springorum (english translation), described as Litten biographer, also refers to him as Jewish. Finally Dr Dirk Riedel, historian of Dachau, states that Hans Litten had to sew on a yellow star before his mother visited him there in 1938. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim Craigie (talk • contribs) 19:25, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Litten's religious affiliation was not set in stone. He was baptized, but learned Hebrew in school. He had Jewish friends and investigated Judaism, in part in rebellion against his father, who had left it. Maternal birth, not Nazi classification is what defines someone as a Jew, though others may find it politically expedient to latch onto this or that label. Litten was ignored for decades because he didn't fit comfortably into western or communist propaganda. Arguing over whether or not he was a Jew is just as silly. He was a humanitarian more than anything. In addition, some may be interested in Hett's translation mistakes, typical of a newbie (speaking from personal experience here) mentioned in this review by a German journalist who also writes in (impeccable) English. Marrante (talk) 11:24, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

A further note: Litten's father had a Jewish father, but his mother was the sister of Ludwig Lichtheim, who does not seem to have been Jewish, which would put the claim that Hans Litten was Jewish on even shakier ground. Marrante (talk) 14:57, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

As far as I understood there are two parties. The one that says that since he felt "Jew" he was a Jew. The other party (and many of his contemporary friends) say that to be a "Jew" you need to be born from a Jewish mother. I think we should explain both positions in the article avoiding to take parts or "set it in stone" (in other words I would not put his religion affiliation in his bio-card in the article). Or are there some specific policies in Wikipedia? --Dia^ (talk) 15:17, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

My position is that the whole discussion is a distracting sideshow that detracts from the real reason Litten is important. I only added the detail about his father and grandmother because I just learned about it and thought it was relevant, but if it re-ignites the debate, I'm sorry I mentioned it. Litten was a humanist. His religious background was of little consequence and had nothing to do with the reason he was arrested by the Gestapo or treated the way he was at Dachau. That he wore a yellow star was hardly significant, but emblematic of his status for the Nazis. That they had even a quasi-legitimate excuse to make him wear it must have been for the Nazis icing on the cake. The prize was having Litten their prisoner. Marrante (talk) 16:19, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you perceive this discussion as a "distracting sideshow". I find factual discussions such as this one always constructive, because the tone is constructive. I agree with you that his religion had little to do with his arrest and his treatment by the Nazis but, from what Stefanie Schüler-Springorum writes, it seems that to Litten himself his affiliation with the Jewish religion was not a "sideshow". If in an article we should write just the bare facts that make someone encyclopedic, we should delete most information about private life and religious affiliation. Litten is a figure that surely deserve more attention and recognition than he had got so far. Apart from that, Jew and humanism are not necessary conflicting with each other, there is such a thing as Humanistic Judaism. --Dia^ (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

So, Litten wasn't Jewish by descent (his mother wasn't Jewish), he wasn't Jewish by faith or practice (he was Lutheran), and he wasn't Jewish by ethnicity (he was predominantly German) -- ipso facto, he was Jewish. Thanks for clearing that up. Bricology (talk) 08:00, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I really don't want to prolong this discussion, but for clarity's sake, I didn't say or mean to imply there was a clash between Judaism and humanism, but rather, I didn't want his life to be boiled down to a heated argument over whether or not he was Jewish. So what if he was or wasn't? My understanding from all that I read in expanding this article was that he dabbled in Judaism and was attracted to it through his friendships with Jews, but that he was ambivalent about his religious identity, sometimes calling himself a Christian. What Litten was not ambivalent about was Principle and that's why I called him a humanist. His devotion to Principle transcended mere religious labels and is what made him great. Marrante (talk) 19:35, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Article contradicts itself regarding Litten's legacy

Was he forgotten after the war (until 2011, if the lead is to be believed) or is the German lawyers' association named after him and gives a regular award named in his honour? The claim that he was forgotten until 2011 is sourced to a BBC-published source dating to 2011, which hardly seems like a reliable third-party source for the claim that the BBC saved an unsung hero from the ash-heap of history... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:13, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

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Characterization as Progressive in lede

Is this historically accurate? It seems more in keeping with modern definitions of progressivism and not what it meant in the early 20th century, certainly not in America but I think not in Germany as well. I'm not familiar enough with early 20th century German politics to suggest an alternative, unfortunately. It's clear that he's on the left but not communist or even particularly socialist. Is there a better term to describe his political views as they would have been seen at the time, and if not can we get a source for why Progressive is appropriate? Throwaway85 (talk) 04:43, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

"because his politics did not fit comfortably in either the west or the communist postwar propaganda"

What does "because his politics did not fit comfortably in either the west or the communist postwar propaganda" mean? The grammar does not make sense; what does "west" mean here? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Firstly, the statement refers to the non-communist part of Germany as "the west", namely The Federal Republic of Germany, also known as "West Germany", which comprised the sectors occupied by Britain, France and Germany after the end of the Second World War.

Secondly, the word "communist" refers to the so-called "German Democratic Republic" (GDR) -- otherwise known in the German language as the "Deutsche Demokratische Republik" (DDR) -- namely the sector of postwar Germany which was occupied by the USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) which, for shortness, was often called simply "Russia".

Thirdly, it refers to the extremely contradictory postwar propaganda messages being sent out by the western- and the communist-occupied sectors of Germany during the post-WWII period, meaning the almost five decades between the end of the second world war and the re-unification of Germany in the 1990's.

Fourthly, it is saying that Hans Litten was largely ignored by both sides during the post-WWII period because his own political statements and activities were not well-aligned with either of the propaganda messages which were being put out by those two "sides" of Germany. The Wikipedia page Propaganda explains what that word means. Anameisbutaname^Talk 09:43, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

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