Talk:Haymarket railway station

Requested move 10 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn This is clearly not happening. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:30, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

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Haymarket railway station → Haymarket railway station (Scotland) – "railway station" vs. "station" fails to actually disambiguate anything in this context - most of the others are also railway stations. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:06, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, why is there any need to disambiguate it when there isn't another article called Haymarket railway station? G-13114 (talk) 22:47, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

  Because there are other railway stations called "Haymarket", which I could see someone referring to as "Haymarket railway station". * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose the other stations are either in the US so wouldn't be referred to as "railway stations", bus stations, or don't have an article. I don't see any need to move the article. Garuda3 (talk) 10:26, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: WP:AINTBROKE. YorkshireExpat (talk) 10:35, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. The hatnote to the dab page suffices to allow anyone who comes here looking for a different station to find what they are looking for. This station is the primary topic for "Haymarket railway station". Thryduulf (talk) 12:29, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: For the same reasons as given above. Mike Marchmont (talk)
• Oppose Clearly the primary topic. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:29, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 10 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. While the "oppose" arguments are more numerous, they have less weight as they are contrary to policy based on the train and tram station appearing to be part of a single multi-modal station based on the current content of the article.

However, given the strength of the opposition to this move, and the fact that the support side hasn't proven in this discussion that it is a multi-modal station, the result has to be no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 20:12, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

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Haymarket railway station → Haymarket station (Edinburgh) – Since Edinburgh Trams served Haymarket station for ten years, why hasn't it been renamed yet? WP:UKSTATION. JuniperChill (talk) 19:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 06:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Other possible names are Haymarket station (Scotland), Haymarket station (UK), Haymarket station (United Kingdom) but definitely not Haymarket railway station (Scotland) as that failed four months ago.

• Note for anyone that has or is planning to vote 'oppose', please note that (per WP:UKSTATION) states that if a railway station also serves tram, DLR or metro station, then it is titled 'X station' rather than 'X railway station'. Yes, its a railway station but in this case, the tram stop is just outside the station, like with East Croydon station. Regarding Birmingham New Streets and case, it is in the same position as Haymarkets but the tram stop is not called '(Birmingham) New Street' but 'Grand Central'. I could argue that Grand Central tram stop should redirect to New Street station followed by a rename, but that should be discussed elsewhere. JuniperChill (talk) 12:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

• As I archived this page up to the Feb RM, there was a discussion earlier from late 2015 about this thing. It can be found at /Archive 1#Naming JuniperChill (talk) 15:30, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support I moved it ages back, but someone moved it back here. There's no justification for it still being at 'railway station' any more. It's been in contravention of the naming policy for far too long. G-13114 (talk) 21:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Can't believe it has been discussed many times, but no one has started a proper RM discussion until now. It was discussed above, as well as here. I also unintentionally started this RM exactly 4 months after the previous one. JuniperChill (talk) 22:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose for consistency. Haymarket is a railway station, even though the road outside has a tram stop and a few bus stops. Minor point: a qualifier such as (UK) would be ambiguous with Haymarket Metro station to any reader who is not intimately familiar with every nuance of Wikipedia station naming. Certes (talk) 18:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

The exact location of the tram stop doesn't matter, and it isn't on the street it's just off the street outside the entrance. Exactly the same arrangement exists at East Croydon station, a railway station with a tram stop in the street outside the main entrance with the same name. The point is it's a transport interchange between two systems on the same site, which clearly makes it multi-modal. G-13114 (talk) 05:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

"Haymarket station" is certainly a much more common name. I live a few miles away, and I don't think I've ever heard or read the words "Haymarket railway station" beyond Wikipedia, even in the years before the tram. However, our railway editors have implemented a clear and longstanding local consensus which inserts "railway" into such titles. There may be an argument that WP:COMMONNAME should override WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, but it's not specific to Haymarket, so this page may not be the place to debate it. Certes (talk) 09:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

You haven't answered any of the points I made. There is a clear longstanding consensus for multi-modal stations to be at "x station" rather than "x railway station". The situation here is exactly the same as East Croydon station. G-13114 (talk) 09:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. How many Haymarket stations are there that it need disambiguation? Murgatroyd49 (talk) 18:23, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  Eight. Certes (talk) 21:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

That's not the point, the point is it's a multi-modal station. G-13114 (talk) 05:34, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. It's a railway station with a tram stop outside it, just like hundreds of other railway stations around the world. The railway station is far and away the most significant part. And it's the clear primary topic for "Haymarket railway station". -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

As I pointed out above, the situation here is exactly the same as East Croydon station, it's a multi-modal interchange, and thus comes under the naming policy for multi-modal stations. There is quite simply no policy based reason for this to be at "railway station". G-13114 (talk) 09:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Other than WP:COMMONSENSE? -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:13, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, for anyone voting oppose, they should read WP:UKSTATION first where if a railway station also serves the metro, tram or DLR, then 'Foo railway station' becomes 'Foo station'. This will soon happen to Blackpool North railway station now that the tram extension should open in the summer. JuniperChill (talk) 10:18, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It's a railway station with a tram stop outside, the tram stop is not an integral part of the station. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 11:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Then you would want East Croydon station and Wolverhampton station (as per above) and Stratford International station (because the DLR station isn't physically connected to the Network rail station and you have to pass thru ticket barriers as well as to cross the road) to be renamed?

Google Streetview link for Stratford International JuniperChill (talk) 16:38, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Indeed there's possibly a debate to be had over what exactly constitutes a multi-modal station. However if East Croydon and Wolverhampton etc stations are named as multi-modal, then there's really no defence for the position that this shouldn't be as well. I notice that none of the oppose voters have attempted to engage with this point. G-13114 (talk) 07:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: WP:UKSTATIONDAB seems to call for Haymarket station (Scotland), though I don't see why that's better than Haymarket station (Edinburgh). Ham II (talk) 19:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  I've wondered if Edinburgh Haymarket station might be a good option. G-13114 (talk) 07:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

  Only if the word "Edinburgh" actually appears on the station signage. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:36, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Clear primary topic is the fact that it's a mainline railway station served by long-distance trains that has existed for 178 years versus a recent light rail stop which isn't even part of the station. If it was a proper multi-modal interchange then I could understand the concept more, but we shouldn't be changing the names of articles because a tram line happens to appear in the road outside (see also Birmingham New Street railway station, which we don't change merely because a tram stops outside one of the entrances). Black Kite (talk) 09:22, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Birmingham New Street is different as the tram stop outside is called Grand Central, the critical difference here is that they both have the same name and are on the same property. And BNS was at 'station' at one time, before someone moved it back without any discussion. G-13114 (talk) 10:20, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Fair point re BHM, but IMHO we shouldn't be doing this at all unless they're proper integrated interchanges. Black Kite (talk) 13:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

What's your definition of a proper integrated interchange? G-13114 (talk) 09:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I haven't seen any policy based objections to this move, just a lot of WP:I DON'T LIKE IT type comments. And people denying that it's multi-modal, even though its situation is exactly the same as numerous other stations which are named "x station" as has been listed above. An argument which none of the oppose voters have even engaged with. Unless any policy based objections can be argued, then the oppose votes really carry very little weight in my view. G-13114 (talk) 10:20, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Serious question - why does the fact that a station has a tram stop situated 50/100m from the main building justify a different article name than every other station on the network? East Croydon is a good case in point and going back through the page revisions, I don't see a clear justification. The argument that "it's just like that" is not enough, especially given that the naming policy is such a mess after external editors with no knowledge of the subject-matter forced through changes which result in quite unnatural titles. Lamberhurst (talk) 13:12, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, the statement that both the railway station and tram stop are on the same property is incorrect. Much like with Birmingham New Street railway station and Grand Central tram stop, the railway station is on land owned by Network Rail, while the tram stop sits outside of the station's boundaries on land owned by the local authority. Eukrane (talk) 23:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's correct, the tram stop is on the station forecourt, right outside the entrance. See google maps G-13114 (talk) 09:49, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The railway station and the tram stop are on opposite sides of Rosebery House, a commercial office block unconnected to the railway. They are not two parts of one integrated multi-modal interchange. Certes (talk) 17:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense, the tram stop is on the station forecourt, practically right outside the main entrance, as you can see in this Google streetview. G-13114 (talk) 11:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Clearly shows the stops are outside Rosebery House. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 16:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

The tram stop seems to be less than 25 yards from the new station entrance. It could hardly be closer without jeopardising that pedestrian crossing. More images at commons: c:File:Haymarket Station - geograph.org.uk - 5293725.jpg; c:File:Map of Edinburgh Haymarket mainline station and tram stop (OSM standard, zoom 17).jpg; c:File:Tram tracks at Haymarket station, Edinburgh.jpg. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:17, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

The actual stops are further back Murgatroyd49 (talk) 18:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

If you go to https://scotlis.ros.gov.uk/map-search and search EH12 5EY you can see the official boundaries for the station and tram stop, which should hopefully clarify where they sit in relation to each other. You can see that the tram stop is a separate entity but does extend to right beside the station. [1] also refers to the tram stop as being "located just outside of" the station. I don't have a strong opinion on how that affects the article name one way or the other. JaggedHamster (talk) 20:20, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I feel like an RFC may be necessary to clarify on the policy of article titles of UK railway stations that also serve a tram (or metro/DLR) at WP:UKSTATION. If an RFC is needed, then it needs to be after this RM discussion has concluded to prevent confusion. While most railway stations follow the guideline, This article was at its (possibly) incorrect name for 10 years now and no one changed it although there was a now-archived discussion on it.

I think that Blackpool North railway station is in a similar vein, now that the tram system opened. A request was made at WP:RM/TR (permalink). The tram stop is just like a 1 min walk across the road (just note that the satilite view is c. 2022) while Haymarket isn't. Anymore further discussions regarding Blackpools case would/should remain at that talk page. JuniperChill (talk) 20:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Blackpool North is very clearly two separate stations - to get from the tram to trains you have to exit the tram platforms, walk through a subway, across a small paved area, across a road, across the station frontage and then in to the main entrance of the railway station. Based on Google Street View and the photos on Commons, Haymarket is very much in the arguably one station, arguably two stations category. Thryduulf (talk) 14:02, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: While the "oppose" arguments are more numerous, the "support" arguments appear to have less weight as they are contrary to policy based on the train and tram station appearing to be part of a single multi-modal station based on the current content of the article. Relisting to give time for additional participation, as well as for editors in support and opposition of the proposal to provide sources demonstrating whether the stations are seperate or combined. BilledMammal (talk) 06:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.