Talk:Heathenry (new religious movement)

Vandalism at Simple English Wikipedia's "Asatru" article

The Simple Wikipedia article "Asatru" could use more eyes. I reverted some pretty juvenile but extensive vandalism that was there for days before I saw it and I happened on it by chance. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:20, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Too Generalized?

Should all these different beliefs be plopped together in one page? Many of these beliefs have vastly different core values. Gurluas (talk) 19:35, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Of course, there's a great deal of variation within Heathenry, but the same could be said of almost any sufficiently large religion. Think of the huge internal diversity within Christianity, for example. We wouldn't break up the Christianity article just because the Jesuits, Positive Christianity, and Mormonism all seem very different from one another. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:00, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah but all of those beliefs share core values, such as the belief in Jesus or their God. This is the equivalent of making a monotheistic article and plopping Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism in the same article and removing their respective articles. Norse Paganism is entirely different from Greek Paganism, or Celtic Paganism. Gurluas (talk) 15:15, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

This article doesn't discuss Greek or Celtic-oriented Paganisms, only Germanic-oriented ones. In contemporary contexts, Heathenry refers to Germanic-oriented modern Paganisms, and the article makes this quite clear. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

@Gurluas Hence why there isn't significant Celtic or Hellenic information? Hellenism is only referenced as an example of a cognate term and the history between the two groups, Celtic Paganism is only mentioned in the 'See Also'? FarHarBard (talk) 14:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

External links

User:Skyerise has recently raised concerns that the external links section of this article is getting excessively long, and I think they have a point. At present we link to the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on Heathenry and then thirteen websites operated by different Heathen groups. Should we be removing some or all of those thirteen? If we decide to keep some but not others, what criteria should be used to determine what to keep? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think any of the current external links pass the criteria of WP:ELYES or WP:ELMAYBE. Britannica article fails WP:ELNO#1, and the individual organizations fail WP:ELNO#19. A link to a directory of organizations would be a better solution than hosting the list here. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 10:16, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I also recommend removing all of them. :bloodofox: (talk) 10:17, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Done. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 10:25, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Asatru-Eu Network

There is a section I would like to add to the page but not exactly sure how. It should definitely be at the modern developments section, but there where exactly, not sure (maybe after the text deals with czech communities).

"An important, transnational project also emerged in Europe under the name of Asatru-Eu Network in the 2000s. This loose alliance of more than a dozen local groups organises the International Ásatrú Summer Camp from time to time and aims to create stronger bond between the communities of the continent."

And the reference would be this website: https://www.asatru-summercamp.org/asatru-eu-network/

I thank for your help, would come in handy. Ingwar98 (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ingwar98: You cannot use the project's own website as a source. You must use third-party source such as reliable news sites, academic journals and books as sources. Most brand new small organizations won't have reliable sources for twenty or more years, if they survive that long. Unless there are third-party sources, the org doesn't meet our most basic notability requirements. Skyerise (talk) 22:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh okay, I am sorry! THe reason why I resorted to it, as it was included in another wikipedia page with similar self-reference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathenry_in_the_United_Kingdom), and also because many of the asatru communities that have official wikipedia pages, also declare themselves as members of this alliance-organisation on their official websites. But then I try to find some third-party reference, if there is any at all. Ingwar98 (talk) 22:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ingwar98: I've tagged that for review. An organization's website should really only be used as a source in an article about itself - if there are sufficient third-party sources to support that it is notable. Material shouldn't be inserted into another article unless based on third-party sources, so that section you mention seems to be promotional and should probably be reduced to a sentence or two that can be supported by third-party sources. Skyerise (talk) 20:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Kindly point to a source

Editor Midnightblueowl, would you kindly point to a single source cited in the body of the article that says anything like "those Heathens who espouse folkish and far-right perspectives tend to favor the terms Odinism, Wotanism, Wodenism, or Odalism". I can't find one. Stringing multiple sources together (not saying that's the case) to support that statement would surely be synthesis, wouldn't it? Carlstak (talk) 01:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

If it's needed, we can add in "White, Ethan Doyle (6 October 2017). "Northern Gods for Northern Folk: Racial Identity and Right-wing Ideology among Britain's Folkish Heathens". Journal of Religion in Europe. 10 (3): 241–273. doi:10.1163/18748929-01003001." which at states that Odinism and Wodenism are typically used by neo-völkisch groups. On the Othala page we also have references linking Odalism and those who espouse racist forms of heathenry. Ingwina (talk) 06:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The final paragraph of the "Terminology" sub-section provides citations for these claims regarding terms like "Odinism" and "Wodenism". As is Wikipedia policy, the lead summarises the content of the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)