Talk:History of Saturday Night Live

Useful sources and such

• Miller, James Andrew; Shales, Tom (6 October 2015). Live From New York: The Complete, Uncensored History of Saturday Night Live as Told by Its Stars, Writers, and Guests (2 ed.). Back Bay Books. ISBN 978-0-316-29506-2. LCCN 2014943177.
• Whalley, Jim (21 July 2010). Saturday Night Live, Hollywood Comedy, and American Culture: From Chevy Chase to Tina Fey. Palgrave Macmillan US. ISBN 978-0-230-10358-0.
• Kaplan, Arie (2014-08-01). Saturday Night Live: Shaping TV Comedy and American Culture. Twenty-First Century Books. ISBN 978-1-4677-4795-0. Archived from the original on April 12, 2023. Retrieved March 9, 2023. (I consider this less valuable than the upper sources, but it might be useful.)
• Adding more later, but this list may have some useful stuff.

There is also an upcoming movie and a few more documentaries in store for SNL50, though I'd prefer not to use the movie directly but as a frame of reference. Would recommend using WP:SFN for the books and research because some sources may be used repeatedly. Spinixster (trout me!) 10:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Searching through Google Scholar and WP:TWL may also return more sources, especially older ones. Spinixster (trout me!) 10:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Spinixster. I don't usually use Sfn but it seems apparent it's the cleaner way to go here so I'm happy to go with it and I'll change the rest of the sources back. I am basically just polishing and refining what's there before adding significant amounts of new content -- for example I'd like to do a full section about the 9/11 attacks using a great Rolling Stone source in the article, and possibly fuller sections on political campaigns. Most of the article is currently very reliant on the Shales and Miller book -- understandable since it's basically the definitive source on SNL -- but I'm also trying to find additional sources so the article isn't so reliant on one source. I'm also thinking about potential ways to segment the article that don't border on WP:OR. I was thinking maybe the Internet era (2005-2020, starting with the Lonely Island) and the Covid era (since 2020), although that's not perfect. Still trying stuff out. StewdioMACK (talk) 10:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I think once we add enough information, it's easier to find what should be split. There are unsurprisingly less scholarly sources for the recent years, so I think we might have to use normal news ones. Spinixster (trout me!) 13:05, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Just published a major edit. Putting some more interesting sources here I plan to incorporate:

• https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2021/05/20/snl-paul-mooney-richard-pryor/
• https://www.salon.com/2014/12/14/saturday_night_lives_edgiest_night_the_inside_story_of_richard_pryors_brilliant_evening/
• https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/02/saturday-night-live-lorne-michaels-rejected-actors
• https://web.archive.org/web/20191114123022/https://tv.avclub.com/distilling-4-decades-of-saturday-night-live-down-to-jus-1798233479

StewdioMACK (talk) 17:31, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

This might be just my own concern, but I think that this article should only cover things about the history of Saturday Night Live directly, and the prose should also be succinct. Detailed information about certain sketches or events may be better in the main article or somewhere else. (WP:FANCRUFT, and possibly WP:TOOBIG) Also watch out for WP:WTW. Just needed to put this here in case someone questions any of my cuts of content. Spinixster (trout me!) 10:07, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I reviewed your chop and agree with your cuts. I was about to say that Lonely Island's returns in 2013 and 2018 should be mentioned, but changed my mind because it's in the parent Lonely Island article anyway. I also moved the future section out to main article as you probably saw. StewdioMACK (talk) 10:18, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Actually I'm still undecided on whether to keep that one sentence mentioning that they returned or not -- I'll revisit it at another point. I gotta step away for a bit. Thank you for your review/edits. StewdioMACK (talk) 10:31, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it's probably not needed to mention; after all, we don't mention every single former cast member who has come back to host, and that information would probably be best kept at the article about the group. Spinixster (trout me!) 10:38, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

You're probably right. Do you happen to have a copy of the Shales 2015 book to verify page numbers? I have a digital version but it doesn't have the actual page numbers so I'm kind of stuck at the moment. StewdioMACK (talk) 08:40, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

There is one on Archive.org which I often use but it has limited pages, so if you want to go in other directions... Spinixster (trout me!) 08:49, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks - as you can probably tell, your website recommendation was very helpful. Refs are pretty great now hopefully and page numbers align with the 2015 edition. I'd love to get this to GA or even FA at some point, along with the main article, so the verifiability is important. Obviously you can tell I'm still writing and adding to the rest of the article (past 1985) before I start refining too hard, so forgive the random jumps in time and stuff, still very much under construction. I like to start with having a lot / too much good content and then refine from there, so your cuts and perspective have been extremely helpful.

This'll go up to peer review eventually and there'll be more input so I'm happy to live with it for now, but I'd urge you to reconsider some of the Murphy cuts - I'd argue that he warrants that subsection, as much coverage of the Ebersol/Doumanian years and the show focuses on him, he's considered the most important part of that era of the show, and he was considered important enough to this day to be invited back for his own segment during the 40th anniversary special. If you prefer it how it is now I'll have to add a paragraph about some of his characters/performances during the show at minimum, but I think the way it was might have been good, or a less major cut. I'd also argue the 1984-85 season was unique/different enough to warrant a subsection too, and it wouldn't be oversectioning. Just some thoughts at this point. StewdioMACK (talk) 12:49, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

We have to be careful with subsections; too much and it's confusing, too little and it's also confusing. I usually only leave subsections for paragraphs that the viewer could benefit for some pointers (e.g. the Doumanian and Ebersol years being separate). I do not think the 1984-85 season would need a separate subsection because of that; it's still part of the Ebersol years, and the paragraphs are pretty short overall. (MOS:OVERSECTION applies here.)

I do not think Eddie Murphy needs a subsection, because if he does need his own section, then the other important cast members should as well, and at that point it'd just be cruft unrelated to the show's history. A brief mention would probably be best, though I've no idea where in the section it would be appropriate.

And cuts and edits are very normal in an ongoing draft! I have another draft right now that I had to cut a lot out of and reorganize, and I usually leave the reasoning in the edit summary when so. When we polish up the later years, I'm sure it will look better. Spinixster (trout me!) 13:42, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, since you mentioned wanting to bring the Saturday Night Live and history of SNL article to GA and/or FA, I'd actually consider not doing so right now and focus on smaller/less broad articles for experience first as well as familiarize yourself with the relevant criterias. These types of articles are easier to manage, find information for and, based on my knowledge, people are more keen on reviewing short articles. Spinixster (trout me!) 13:54, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I've just stepped away for a bit and reviewed the cuts again (with the new compromise edit) and I unfortunately still feel that you've removed too much in this instance. I disagree that it sets a bad precedent that other cast need their own sections; Murphy is a unique case. He is uniquely important in the show's history; he essentially WAS the show during that period. His impact is too broad (spanning both the Doumanian and Ebersol eras) to be confined to the season articles, and everything in my initial section was directly related to SNL and not out of scope. He's a significant focus of any scholarly sources about that era, like the Weingrad and Shales books, and there's a genuine argument that the show would not exist today without his popularity during that period.

The Nolte hosting incident you removed is also important to highlight how important Murphy had become to the show, and the effect that that had on the rest of the cast, like Piscopo. Not sure what exact guideline it is (maybe MOS:LAYOUT somewhere?) but the length of sections should roughly reflect their importance to the article/section; the Murphy section more than justified that, and a brief mention like you suggest just isn't gonna do it in my opinion.

The Michaels/Beatles saga is also frequently mentioned in historical discussions of that era and I think it's a bit wrong to omit it entirely, but since it's kind of confined to that first season and didn't have a broader impact on the show, I can understand that removal and I won't contest it.

About the draft comments: I didn't mean to imply that I'm unhappy with anyone cutting my work -- I've been very accepting and honestly appreciative of your cuts, I thought the Lonely Island cuts improved the article for example -- which is why I hope you can understand the desire to dispute one that I honestly think is a regression. I understand the concern about MOS:OVERSECTION but there's no hard rule on what constitutes a short section - in my opinion, the initial Murphy section was not too short, and the Ebersol era actually looks clunky and undersectioned now if anything.

And about the GA/FA comments, it's not the focus right now or in the immediate future, all I was saying was that I'm trying to bake verifiability and good prose quality in now so less work would have to be done later if we wanted to do that. I'm not unfamiliar with the criteria, I've done several GA reviews over the years for example. My priority at the moment is merging all relevant info from the existing history articles in, making sure it's well-sourced/written/relevant, and also adding more current history as we discussed.

I say all this with respect because it's great to be collaborating with someone on a topic we're clearly both passionate about. I hope you can try and understand my take on it and we can reach some sort of compromise about Murphy/season 10. StewdioMACK (talk) 16:18, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not necessary to have a separate section for Murphy to show how important he is. We've already mentioned him being credited with much of the season's success, so the reader can infer about his importance. Furthermore, we also do not need to talk about his success in film because that is not related to the show. The Nolte hosting incident can be seen as a big event, but ultimately is a minor part of the show's overall history, and would be best for the season article itself. Piscopo's claim that Ebersol used Murphy's success to divide their friendship might be WP:UNDUE, but either way would also be a minor part of the show's history. In the end, it's best not to include anything that would be considered WP:CRUFT.

I don't think Ebersol's section is clunky and needs subsections at all; it's rather the order of information that is making it clunky. I still have not decided where to talk about X and Y without ruining the cohesion (thus why the Murphy mention seems out of place), so maybe I'll cut some things and add some things there in the future. You are welcome to be bold and make those changes yourself if you disagree with me. Spinixster (trout me!) 02:44, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I could make another long response but I’ll try (probably poorly) and be concise: I don’t understand this rushing to remove content for various reasons before the article is even built up. You also here removed what you said was oversectioning before I’d even gotten to expand or work on those sections.

I just think the point of having a dedicated History article is to expand on show history and to have the opportunity to go into a bit more detail than the main article. Again I’ve been very open to your cuts/input but the more I research this latest one the more I’m convinced it’s a regression. To continue to insist that Murphy and the Nolte incident (or season 10) is not important enough to be expanded on in this article is very surprising to me. Murphy tops or is near the top of any cast ranking you can find online. Chris Rock said himself in the 40th special that Eddie saved the show from cancellation during a time where its survival was at risk. The scholarly sources that are the basis for this article all say it. CNN, Washington Post, and TheWrap all say it. Reliable source after reliable source. His success in film also bears a mention because that is directly related to the cited jealousy from other cast members and is directly the reason why he left the show. I don’t understand the comments about being bold because there’s no point in reverting it right now if its just gonna get reverted again; that’s why I’m here discussing.

Seasons of the show that are very unique and led to significant overhauls are absolutely deserving of their own section. These are seasons 6, 10, 11, and 20. This is not my personal opinion, there is significant reliable sources for all of them. It is actually detrimental to reader comprehension to undersection the article and just have walls of text. Season 6 has its own section in the Doumanian years, and 20 will be part of the Bad Boys era (haven’t decided if that year needs its own section but I have a feeling it might as there is significant literature on the show’s problems during that year). Season 10 and 11 are a completely different approach to the show’s casting where Ebersol and his co-producer said they wanted to “blow up the show”. It’s not just another footnote of the Ebersol years, it’s a very important important time in the show’s history that led to Michaels’ return (who made the same all-star mistake the year after before correcting course), If your concern is that my sections are too small, I can pull a bit more information out of the books. I’ll leave it there for now but if we’re at an impasse here I may ask for a third opinion on it so I can move on and continue expanding soon. StewdioMACK (talk) 05:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Again, you are welcome to be bold and make those changes yourself if you disagree with me. Spinixster (trout me!) 06:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)