Talk:Hmong Americans

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Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down

Am I overstepping? I feel like this book is a lot of people's introduction to Hmong culture, but I may be biased. If I am, please feel free to remove it and leave a note on my Talk page telling me. Thanks. Janet13 06:17, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I've never heard of it, and I'm guessing most people who have been introduced to Hmong culture never have either. Most people's introduction comes from contact with their Hmong neighbors, not from reading books. That said, I don't think overstepping is the word I'd use...I would say, however, that its insertion into the article could use some serious re-wording first to indicate why it's mentioned in this article and second so that it reads more smoothly. I'd try to help out, but I (1) don't know what its relevance is and (2) don't know really what you're trying to say, so I can't reword it so it's less jarring. Sorry. :-\ Tomer^TALK 21:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Tomer, thanks for responding. I've reworded it some (and will post notification on your talk as well)... please see what you think. If it still doesn't work, please feel free to remove it. Janet13 21:57, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Looks good. I redid it a bit, as well as fixed up a few other things in there. Hope you don't mind. Tomer^TALK 22:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Yay, wikipedia in action. :) I certainly don't mind and very much appreciate the suggestions and edits. Janet13 22:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Editing new population information

Is it possible to put this state-by-state population data in a table or similar format? I would also recommend limiting the table to only the first 10 states or so. Listing all 50 in this article seems excessive since the information is accessible elsewhere. (Also, I basically copied and pasted the information that had been recently been added to the Hmong/Mong people (but seemed to belong in this article) and some editing will be required to reorganize the information here.Nposs 03:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the 50 state list which was basically copied and pasted from other sources. This information is readily available on other websites and it is an inappropriate level of detail for this article. I've also tried to pare down the paragraph a little bit - but also included another source for more population data about Hmong Americans if readers want to learn more. Not every city with a Hmong community needs to be listed. Now this information should be accessible with the links provided.

article

an article on the sbuject youth gang violence in the Hmong American community.

The violence of Hmong gangs and the crime of rape FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin,The, Feb, 2003 by Richard Straka

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_2_72/ai_98253655/pg_1

List of Asian Americans and other lists nominated for deletion

List of Asian Americans and a whole bunch of other lists have been nominated for deletion. If you have an opinion, please vote at the AfD.

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Asian Americans
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Chinese Americans (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Korean Americans
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Cambodian Americans
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Filipino Americans
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Hmong Americans

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 September 12 for all the lists that have been nominated for deletion. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Invitation to discussion

Active editors of this article are invited to join the discussion regarding the change in Asian American article's infobox. Specifically we are looking to get nominations for individuals who would fall under this article, nominations shall remain open until 9 November 2009. Comments are also welcomed. Thank you in advance --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 13:19, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

FYI, the nomination process is now over, and the voting period has began. Due to lack of nominations the slot for Laotian female representative is vacant, and will need further discussion sometime after voting has been concluded. The voting period will last until 4 December 2009. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:10, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Hunting in Their New Home

Should the article include reference to this: For Hmong Hunters, a Guiding Voice in Their New Home? --Pawyilee (talk) 10:39, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Source

• Bliatout, Bruce Thoupaou, Bruce T. Downing, Judy Lewis, and Dao Yang. "Handbook for Teaching Hmong-Speaking Students." Southeast Asia Community Resource Center. Folsom Cordova Unified School District, 1988. WhisperToMe (talk) 09:41, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The article History of the Hmong in Merced, California seems to be an attempt by User:WhisperTome to incorporate information from Anne Fadiman's book The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down. Considering that we don't have parallel articles for Fresno or St. Paul Hmong (nor for other ethnic groups in particular cities, AFAIK), it doesn't seem like we should have a separate article. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 14:16, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

• Discussion is at Talk:History_of_the_Hmong_in_Merced,_California - I oppose the merge proposal for the reasons stated on that page, and the existence of the article about the Hmong in Merced does not stop anyone from making a more general History of the Hmong in California or History of the Hmong in the Central Valley of California
• While Fadiman's work has been incorporated in the body of the article, there are other sources specifically about the Hmong in Merced, such as " "The Hmong and Health Care in Merced, California." Hmong Studies Journal. v2n2. northern hemisphere Spring 1998."
• WhisperToMe (talk) 02:47, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this article is too specific and reads like a book report rather than an encyclopedia article. Much of the excessive detail needs to be removed and the important details should be merged into the Hmong American article. The Merced community, while significant in the context of Fadiman's book, is not sufficiently notable to warrant its own article especially in light of the more significant communities elsewhere. Nposs (talk) 04:14, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

When you ask the question "Should a standalone article be written about this subject?" you consider the corpus of reliable sources available. This article clearly needs to be standalone, as evidenced by the several articles that have been written specifically about that subject:

"The Hmong and Health Care in Merced, California." Hmong Studies Journal. v2n2. northern hemisphere Spring 1998.

"Hmong Language and Cultural Maintenance in Merced, California." Education Resources Information Center. Bilingual Research Journal, v28 n3 p425-461 northern hemisphere Fall 2004.

When you have journal articles written specifically about the subject at hand, there's no way out.

While it is true that the article currently relies too much on one source, it is very, very apparent that it doesn't have to be that way. Over the next few days I'll incorporate information from "The Hmong and Health Care in Merced, California," which is readily available.

About the "reads like a book report rather than an encyclopedia article" - That may be a legitimate editorial issue, but it doesn't answer the question "should this subject be standalone?"

Also you state "Much of the excessive detail" - What is excessive, and why is it excessive? I do not believe that any of the material is excessive, but I will be happy to review material that you believe to be excessive.

WhisperToMe (talk) 05:05, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

As for that other article, I filed a resource request so I can get access to it: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request#Hmong_Language_and_Cultural_Maintenance_in_Merced.2C_California WhisperToMe (talk) 05:57, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

You mention a few articles about the Hmong in Merced, but have you looked up information about the Hmong elsewhere? Do we have parallel History of group x in community y articles?

I have a suspicion that the information at History of the Hmong in Merced, California can be shortened enough that its incorporation into this article would avoid overemphasizing Merced. Perhaps Nposs could start something in a talk page or sandbox that shows how this information can be shortened. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 18:14, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

"You mention a few articles about the Hmong in Merced," - In that case the indications of having enough material to make a standalone article are there

"but have you looked up information about the Hmong elsewhere? Do we have parallel History of group x in community y articles?" - Why not? There's nothing stopping anyone from creating them. If you can find enough sources to write "History of the Hmong in Fresno" or wherever, one is very much welcome to do so

By the way the idea for this largely came from History of the Jews in Galveston, Texas

In regards to shortening it - Before he tries that, he should consider "History of the Jews in Galveston, Texas" and think about

WhisperToMe (talk) 18:25, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The History of the Jews in Galveston, Texas is also a case where the article should really be merged into a larger article. Probably it should be a part of the existing article on Rabbi Cohen since the article is mainly about him. It is not a good example of what this article should be.

As far as what can be cut: begin with the numerous quotes, especially those of Fadiman who is not a scholar of Hmong studies, but an author on many topics. Her analysis of Hmong culture, demographics, cultural geography, etc. can not be taken at face value. Most of her comments are unsourced and seem to be opinion. There are many facts in this article are common to Hmong communities around the country and do not make this community stand out. I don't see how it became my job to cut down this article for the merge, but I'm willing to give it a try. Nposs (talk) 21:43, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Follow-up: After a first draft, I would suggest that this article be edited and included in the Merced, California article rather than the Hmong American article. The details are really more specific to it. The section on The Spirit Catches You ... could probably be expanded in the Hmong American article to include some of the detail here, though. Nposs (talk) 21:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

"Most of her comments are unsourced and seem to be opinion." - How do you know they are "unsourced"? Is this saying that the author is really making this up? I'll take a look at the book and see what kinds of work cited section she has.

Usually when content is in a book published by a major publisher (Farrar, Straus and Giroux) we do take the word of the book because the publisher vetted and fact checked the book. If this was self-published, it would be a different matter. Her analysis can be taken at face value because her publisher said so, and we use books published by reliable publishers as reliable sources.

In some cases, "opinion" is a legitimate aspect of a topic to cover. Why would these opinions not be worthy of being covered?

WhisperToMe (talk) 23:03, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The standard of reliability is not the status of the publisher. One of the worst and most factually incorrect books on the Hmong is History of a People (published by Eastern Washington University Press) and written by a university professor Keith Quincy (albeit one who taught philosophy and political science -- not Hmong studies or Southeast Asian studies or Asian American studies.) Nposs (talk) 00:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

As a general rule we do go by the publisher on deciding whether a source is reliable (i.e. a "self-publishing" publisher has the least value, while a university publisher/peer reviewed journal article/other academic publication usually has the highest value). There are cases where factually incorrect information is published by reliable (not infallible) sources. In those cases we use other sources to match and check material and we use editorial judgment.

If you want to open a request on checking how reliable the source is, then we should start a thread at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard on the book

WhisperToMe (talk) 03:18, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)FWIW, there's a long series of History of the Jews in [country/region] articles. There's also quite a few History of the Jews in [city] such as History of the Jews in Vienna, History of the Jews in Laupheim, History of the Jews in Prague, History of the Jews in Pittsburgh, History of the Jews in Philadelphia, History of the Jews in Kalisz, History of the Jews in Brenham, Texas, History of the Jews in Dallas, Texas, History of the Jews in St. Louis, Missouri. There's also a History of the Jews in Ohio and History of Jews in New York. Other than Brenham and Galveston, the cities in question seem to be fairly prominent historically and culturally. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 22:10, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Remember that Galveston at one time was a major commercial center of Texas; it was eclipsed relatively recently by Houston. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:03, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I just got "Hmong Language and Cultural Maintenance in Merced, California" and that's a large journal article. I'll incorporate material from this one as well. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:06, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Please do not add any more to this article. It does not make the subject more notable. If you want to add the reference, it likely belongs on the Hmong language page. The problem is that it is not notable that there are Hmong people in Merced. There are lots of Hmong people in lots of cities. There are lots of Hmong people in lots of small cities where they make up a large part of the community. Right now, the notability of Hmong people in Merced would seem to be that Fadiman wrote about it in a popular book. As for the veracity of Fadiman's statements: many of them quoted here are opinion. Example: Merced is the "most intensely Hmong place in the United States." On what basis does she make this? What would be the data to back this up? "Sometimes I felt that the other cities of the Central Valley ... were mere suburbs of Merced." Opinion. "how extraordinary it was to hear the Hmong language spoken at the Kmart on J Street". Opinion. "the crucial distinction is that you cannot see a restructured property tax, but when you drive down almost any street on the South Side, you can certainly see the Hmong." Opinion. "treated the newcomers like exotic guests." Opinion.

Nposs (talk) 00:42, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

1. If I find information that will invalidate the idea that "this cannot be a functional standalone article" I will add it in a New York minute. You can make a legitimate claim that the content needs a lot of work, or that the content needs editing, but my goal right now is to make the case that the corpus reliable sources show that this topic warrants a standalone article. We can make the article/content better once that question is settled.

2. "There are lots of Hmong people in lots of cities." But there are not "lots of cities" where Dang Moua promoted settlement in because Vang Pao wanted to make a fruit ranch in the area, or "lots of cities" which happened to be the center of subclan gatherings in the Central Valley of California, or "lots of cities" which have the highest concentration of Hmong in the country. I am well-aware that many Hmong are in small cities in the Central Valley, but Fadiman's work states that Merced is where a lot of the subclan meetings happen, and Merced is where the Hmong from other cities congregate to attend those meetings. Hence her comment about other places being "suburb"s of Merced.

Several cities were targeted for secondary Hmong migration in the US. Why is it notable that Dang Moua promoted Merced? Again, my main question is: why is the Hmong settlement in Merced notable? Nposs (talk) 14:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Notability states as a general principle (I added the underline) "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list."

There is a section of "The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down" (titled "Why Did They Pick Merced?") discussing specifically how the Hmong came to Merced, then there are two journal articles that specifically address the Hmong community in Merced. I presume that such a topic merits its own article because we have three sources that specifically address this aspect. This number doesn't include the periodicals discussing the Hmong in Merced.

These sources have significant coverage of the specific subject. For instance the detailed information about Dang Moua promoting Merced would be "significant coverage."

"Presume" does not mean a "guarantee" as there could be circumstances where a subject has many RSes specifically addressing it, but does not merit an article (chiefly because reasons outlined in WP:NOT) - WP:N says "Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not." - If you still feel this way, it may be best to begin an RFC so other editors can review the evidence and determine how best to handle this information.

WhisperToMe (talk) 23:55, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

3. You said "This article is not really a history of Hmong people in Merced. It is several opinions about Hmong people in Merced by Fadiman along with some unrelated demographic data." - The second section states specifically how the Hmong targeted Merced, with Vang Pao's proposed farm and Dang Moua's advocacy and promotion.

Vang Pao's farm never materialized and Moua was not alone in promoting settlement in a specific city. These facts might be interesting in the Merced, California article, but don't warrant a separate page. Nposs (talk) 14:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm aware that Vang Pao's farm never materialized. The promise of the farm started the Hmong migration. Even when the farm proposal failed, the Hmong continued to come anyway. There may have been other Hmong leaders who promoted settlement in other American cities. The question is: Are those accounts documented in RSes? Is there enough material from these RSes to start sections of articles or whole articles on these subjects?

Again WP:N states that "Significant coverage" is a criterion for establishing notability, and the information about the Dang Moua/Vang Pao stuff is "significant coverage" that establishes the topic as notable

WhisperToMe (talk) 23:55, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Three sources is hardly "significant coverage." Have you compared the amount of sourcing you've found for the Hmong community in Merced to that of other places like Fresno and St. Paul? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 02:08, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

WP:Notability says about "significant coverage":

""Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material"

So something that would be a trivial mention would be a sentence "The Hmong in Merced gathered at the stadium to root for Mickey Mantle" in an article about something else, with that being the only sentence mentioning them.

The two journal articles and the section of the book address the subject directly in detail.

You said: "Have you compared the amount of sourcing you've found for the Hmong community in Merced to that of other places like Fresno and St. Paul?" - If you are implying that MSP and Fresno would get more sourcing... Well, that means that those articles would be longer, and that nobody's attempted to write them. That doesn't mean that "Hmong in Merced" isn't a viable standalone topic; it means that you could write a longer and/or better article about "Hmong in MSP" or "Hmong in Fresno."

WhisperToMe (talk) 04:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Now for your examples: You ask about "Example: Merced is the "most intensely Hmong place in the United States." On what basis does she make this? What would be the data to back this up?"

The following Wikipedia article sentences answer that question: "As of 1997 Fresno, California and the Minneapolis – Saint Paul area have larger Hmong populations than Merced, but Merced has a higher concentration of Hmong residents than those two places." - And the information comes from the book, from the same set of pages. The notion that it is "more Hmong" has to do with the density of Hmong in the City of Merced relative to the population. MSP has a larger number, but a greater percentage of the population in Merced is Hmong. Page 227 states the information that, when Fadiman first visited Merced, 1/6th of the population was Hmong. By the time her book was finished, 1/5th of the population was Hmong.

Also Page 24 states that Merced as of the time of the publication of the book had about 61,000 residents, including over 12,000 Hmong.

In Page 296 "Notes on Sources" Fadiman says "The Hmong population of Merced City is an estimate based on projections from the 1990 census. It attempts to take into account new refugees from Thailand, secondary migrants from other parts of the United States, and births (using Hmong, not American, birthrates). The Demographic Research Unit of the California Department of Finance and Rhonda Walton at the Merced Human Services Agency provided assistance."

Yes, but there are several small cities around the country where Hmong people make up a large portion of the population. I grew up in one such place, Eau Claire, WI. For her to say that Merced is the "most intensely Hmong place" in the US is just an opinion. What about densely populated Hmong neighborhoods in large cities? You might note that Merced has an unusually large percentage of its population that is Hmong on the Merced, California article, but it doesn't contribute to the notability for this article. Nposs (talk) 14:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

"What about densely populated Hmong neighborhoods in large cities?" - If you are referring to Minneapolis/St. Paul and Fresno, she had already addressed those places in the argument.

She doesn't mention Wisconsin. However I did find info about the Hmong in Wausau here: http://www.dce.k12.wi.us/srhigh/socialstudies/histday/Hmong/hmong_timeline.htm in 1996 the Hmong made up about 11% of Wausau. In 1997 Merced's percentage, based on the estimate Fadiman compiled, was slightly higher.

WhisperToMe (talk) 23:55, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

""how extraordinary it was to hear the Hmong language spoken at the Kmart on J Street". Opinion."

That comes from the anthropologist Eric Crystal. http://orias.berkeley.edu/summer2002/speakers_2002.html talks a bit about him; he specializes in Southeast Asia. This isn't from Fadiman herself; Fadiman quotes Crystal in her book.

Fine, someone else said it. It is still an opinion, not a fact related demographics or language usage. Why would it be uncommon to hear Hmong spoken in a community with many Hmong people? Nposs (talk) 14:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The point is not "There are Hmong speaking Hmong in a Hmong community" the point is "the Hmong language had a presence in, of all places, Merced, California, when 15 years ago the Hmong language had no presence whatsoever in Merced" - the point is that it all happened in Merced, which would be thought of as an unlikely destination for a Southeast Asian immigrant group WhisperToMe (talk) 03:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

It's still an opinion. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 05:30, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

In many Wikipedia articles, opinions from individuals are covered and described. This is especially the case when the meaning or the significance of an incident or event is disputed, i.e. person A says that it means Y, person B says that it means Z.

Why not try this question: What makes the opinion insignificant? What makes it not worthy of being covered on Wikipedia?

I would think that the opinions of an anthropologist of Southeast Asian cultures in relation to the significance of the Hmong being in Merced would be useful in an article or section about this content.

WhisperToMe (talk) 05:53, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I think you need to step back from this article for a second. It is very "unencyclopedic." Encyclopedia articles do not cite opinions and feature extensive quotes. Encyclopedias paraphrase secondary sources on important topics. That is not currently what is happening in this article. You are trying too hard to create a topic where one would not naturally occur in an encyclopedia. There are lots of improbable places in the US where Hmong is now spoken. It is not notable in Merced. The opinion of an anthropologist is not necessarily more valuable than anyone else -- it is still an opinion. There is good content here, but it more naturally belongs in other existing articles (Hmong Americans and Merced, California). You can find more sources and rephrase this article, but it does not solve the underlying problem. This is not "a history." It is a collection of unrelated data about the Hmong community in Merced, which is very similar to many other Hmong communities in the US. Nposs (talk) 17:39, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

1. Does this mean that a paper encyclopedia wouldn't try to cover something this specific? If so... while it is true that Encarta may not necessarily have a topic on something this specific, Wikipedia has the advantage of not being a paper encyclopedia. Meta:Wiki_is_not_paper says "The length, depth, and breadth of articles in Wikipedia is virtually infinite." Wikipedia can, and does go into really specific topics because it has the space and ability to do that. There are topics which wouldn't be included in a paper encyclopedia which are encouraged to be included here. If the topic naturally occurs in a section of a book from a reliable publisher, two journal articles, and various periodical articles, then I believe the topic can occur and should be covered in the paper-less Wikipedia.

2. "There are lots of improbable places in the US where Hmong is now spoken." Are they covered in reliable sources? Are there sources that give significant coverage to those topics? If so, then we could have many of those articles. If not, then Merced is lucky in that it has the significant coverage while other places don't. I imagine that the San Joaquin Valley can be covered as a whole region. Maybe if History of the Hmong in the San Joaquin Valley is created, it *may* be possible that "History of the Hmong in Merced" could be merged into that; but I do not support the kinds of merging that have been proposed (merge into Hmong-American and Merced, California) so far.

3. About the quote "Encyclopedia articles do not cite opinions" - Wikipedia articles not only mention opinions; they talk extensively about opinions and showcase them, especially when there is a disagreement over facts, or when there is a disagreement over the significance of factors/events/ideas, etc. Disagreement/debate can come from academics, notable figures/politicians, authors of non-academic books from reliable publishers, and/or journalists.

4. Encyclopedia articles can include extensive quotes, especially when it's hard to paraphrase people's opinions or what they are trying to say. Especially this is the case when disputes about factual events and/or disputes on the meaning and/or significance of events occur. We do try to paraphrase quotes and ideas whenever possible. But I am cautious on that matter because I do not want to lose the meaning in what people are saying. You could argue that quotations need to be turned into paraphrasing, but it doesn't affect the question "Can this be a standalone article?" I admit that there are times when I should paraphrase when I don't, but I am happy to let the quotes I insert be converted into paraphrasing, and I do go back and see how I can paraphrase something.

5. Also I commonly see people inserting original research on what the significance is of an idea or an event, i.e. "This man bears the same relation to X as Person B does to Z" or other original ideas. If we source comparisons and assessments from reliable sources, then people won't feel the need to come up with their own original assessments of events, etc. You can see that in how the attitudes of native Merced residents towards Hmong are discussed in what I wrote. Guy X says "racism is not involved" while that book author said "sometimes racism is involved." It is encyclopedic to report on disputes like this, and it is encyclopedic to quote and/or paraphrase them.

WhisperToMe (talk) 08:33, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

"As a result, Fadiman said that "Sometimes I felt that the other cities of the Central Valley—Fresno, Visalia, Porterville, Modesto, Stockton, Sacramento, Marysville, Yuba City—were mere suburbs of Merced.""

This relates to the Wikipedia sentence: "The Hmong who moved elsewhere go to Merced for subclan gatherings in a manner similar to how, in history, Hmong residents in Laos traveled to their home villages from satellite villages" - This has to do with the Hmong from other places going to Merced for the subclan gatherings.

So 2 of the opinions are based upon other information (density of Hmong population, and practice of subclan gatherings), and one is actually from an anthropologist specializing in Southeast Asia who is quoted in Fadiman's book.

WhisperToMe (talk) 02:40, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Again, this is her opinion. Suburb would be the incorrect metaphor here anyway. Merced might be the regional clan hub for community meetings, but why does this merit a separate article? Hmong people all over the country travel and settle along clan lines. This fact could easily be incorporated in the Merced, CA article. Nposs (talk) 14:17, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

See, it's not one or two facts that make up a standalone article. It is a body of facts from various sources and various aspects of the subject. The Dang Moua/Vang Pao stuff AND the regional clan gathering information AND the information about the Hmong educational aspects AND the health care dilemmas (particularly Lia Lee), all coming from sources or sections of sources specifically addressing the topic "The Hmong in Merced."

WhisperToMe (talk) 23:55, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

 Done I have shortened the content of History of the Hmong in Merced, California and merged that article with Merced, California#Hmong community. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 03:37, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The merge had been made even though no new arguments were made after my final post on 30 November 2010. I decided to review your move and consolidation. Considering your shortening, I found that lots of encyclopedic information had been removed. Merced,_California#Hmong_community would be a good summary of the Hmong information, but the article contained more, clearly encyclopedic information about the Hmong community - Information about the clans, Dang Moua's role, Hmong gangs, health care, etc. Now, I am not removing the section you started on Merced. That would make a great summary. So I linked the "main" article from there. To ensure a more complete discussion, I have started Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Asian_Americans#History_of_the_Hmong_in_Merced.2C_California and alerted the WikiProject there. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:58, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I have nominated History of the Hmong in Merced, California for deletion. Please feel free to contribute to that discussion. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 18:43, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Education

I deleted the sentence that read "Hmong-American children born in the United States usually have much better access to education and jobs than that which their parents had, and thus have better economic opportunities than their parents would have had in their former homes."--because it was unsourced etc. I don't see this as the worst problem with that sentence or with the section on education. There is a problem here of cultural bias. If you are talking about pre-war Hmong, it is ridiculous to claim that their children have better access to education and jobs. After all, they had perfectly adequate education and opportunity to be Hmong hill-farmers, which there is nothing in the world wrong with. If you are comparing the US-born children's situation with that of people in refugee camps, the section seems ridiculously obvious. I don't think that's what the author meant, though. Writing like this distorts Hmong history, making it seem as though the Hmong struggled in Laos so they could abandon their homes for the US. They were fierce anti-communist fighters, but if they could have they'd have chosen to stay in the hills and keep on farming. Coming to the US is a better end for them than staying in camps in Thailand, but this wasn't what they wanted to begin with. There is a cultural bias here that suggests implicitly that American jobs and American education are better than other jobs or educations. It also suggests that immigration is a step up for the Hmong from the status quo ante bellum. This is a contention that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article, and smacks of American elitism.Brechbill123 (talk) 22:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

File:Vang Pao 0.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Vang Pao 0.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests January 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 03:16, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

What are you doing today 2601:205:4800:D4F0:5CA6:C819:E7C8:E457 (talk) 09:31, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Images of politicians

At User_talk:RightCowLeftCoast#Politicians_and_ethnic_group_infoboxes I started a debate over whether to include Mee Moua's image here, but he argued it may be better to talk about this specific issue over here.

Rightcow argued that it could be perceived as being POV if one includes politicians in ethnic group infoboxes. Currently the Hmong American one only has Brenda Song with no Vang Pao and no Moua

WhisperToMe (talk) 05:07, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

She is important because she is the first Hmong-American elected to state legislature. I don't know of any Republican Hmong politcal figures at that level or higher. Just reinstate the picture already. There is no political bias here. (She isn't even running for reelection.)--Nposs (talk) 16:14, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Nposs. NPOV doesn't equate to fair and balanced. Does anybody actually perceive including only a democratic politician's image to be a POV problem or are we speculating about hypothetical readers/editors? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 16:38, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

To include only one side of the political spectrum, IMHO creates a bias POV that is supportive of said side. If there is a preference within a group say X to Y that can be written in a neutral manor in an appropriate section in the body of the article as not to give one political spectrum or another undue weight.

As for Vang Pao, I have found a non-creative commons alternative. If we want to use the image at this article one should add fair use rational to the file for use here.

As for Mee Moua she is notable member of the ethnic group, however my opinion is still that only having one side of the political spectrum in the infobox creates an undue balance. Now if her image were to be included in a political section in the body of the article, i would not have an objection. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:30, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Now there is Lormong Lo, if we are looking for a notable Hmong American Republican, to provide balance. He too is a historical individual due to being the "first Hmong American to be appointed to a city council in the U.S". We an use an image under fair use guidelines.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:43, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be fair to put Lormong Lo in alongside Mee Moua. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 15:26, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

About Vang Pao: Cool! Has it been uploaded yet? Where is the picture WhisperToMe (talk) 05:18, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, look at his article page, but you'll need to add a fair use rational, and seeing as how the subject is deceased it can be used as a historical image. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:02, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I also listed it on the NPOV noticeboard at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Ethnic_group_infoboxes_and_pictures_of_politicians WhisperToMe (talk) 05:39, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

I see that no image of Lormong Lo has yet been provided. I have not found an image with no copyright restrictions, but under fair use since the subject is deceased an image can be used. I found this article where we can get a picture from; or if someone knows someone who runs this memorial site perhaps they can release an image to us.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 07:29, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Vang Pao image at Hmong American article

Please add a fair use rational per WP:NFC for the usage of the Vang Pao image at the Hmong American article. Otherwise image will need to be removed from the article's infobox. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:29, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Adding subsection - health disparities

I am proposing to add a subsection in the “Community and social issues” section on health disparities in the Hmong American population. There is already a subsection on mental health, but I think adding an additional subsection can call to attention the disparity in understanding ‘Western’ versus traditional medicine practices. Please let me know your thoughts! Prisci8 (talk) 22:34, 29 January 2020 (UTC) Please let me know if you have any questions/ideas on these proposed changes! For this Wikipedia page, I hope to make the following changes: 1) adding a "Health disparities" section; 2) adding citations throughout the "History" section; 3) editing the "Hmong by location" to add more depth to locations and to simplify longer sections. I hope to improve this currently C-rated class article, and welcome any feedback. Prisci8 (talk) 22:31, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

More sources

• Straka, Richard. "The violence of Hmong gangs and the crime of rape." The FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin. February 2003.

WhisperToMe (talk) 08:01, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Infobox image discussion

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Asian American#Infobox ethnicity representatives. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 07:34, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Asian American#Hmong American in infobox

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Asian American#Hmong American in infobox. Thanks. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:06, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Mental Health

I suggest that a mental health section be added under the "Community Issues" subheading. Another suggestion would be to create a completely new section on mental health. This is a particularly significant issue for the Hmong American community, which has been postulated to be resultant from PTSD, depression, and/or stress from emigration. The issue of the prevalence of sudden and unexplained deaths during sleep amongst Hmong males should be mentioned. Additional areas that should be covered should include the Hmong's specific needs as well as barriers to accessing mental health care. Mtran99 (talk) 08:22, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

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Decline of Hmong language in the United States?

According to this article from about 10 years ago, use of the Hmong language had begun to decline in the US:

https://www.tcdailyplanet.net/hmong-language-endangered/

And according to this report from Education Week this year, the number of English-speakers of Hmong has declned 57% since 2006:

https://www.tcdailyplanet.net/hmong-language-endangered/

I'm not sure how to add this to the article, however.--Beneficii (talk) 15:02, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Sexuality

I don't see how it is encyclopedic or due to include two entire paragraphs on specific organaization that are not notable. I had removed it for the listed reasons but that was reverted so I thought I'd take it to the talk page. What justification is there that this content is due or encyclopedic? Spyglass1 (talk) 02:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for opening this discussion. I have added another news source, as well as more information, since I reverted, and from my view, the content that was removed was basic and sourced information that seems to fit within the context of the section, and it does not appear to be commentary [1]. Also, according to the notability guideline, The notability guideline does not determine the content of articles, but only whether the topic may have its own article. From my view, this small amount of content is WP:DUE within the context of the section, and I plan to continue research to help develop this part of the article to help support the inclusion. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 03:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm not advocating for getting rid of the entire section but I don't believe the two entire paragraphs (which is a substantial bit) on various local organazations it due for the article. I'd be curious to hear the perspectives of other editors not us. Spyglass1 (talk) 03:20, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I have edited the section and other parts of the article in the meantime. Cheers, Beccaynr (talk) 05:06, 16 February 2023 (UTC)