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Talk:Holnicote Estate

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Good articleHolnicote Estate has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Good topic starHolnicote Estate is part of the National Trust properties in Somerset series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 7, 2015Good article nomineeListed
December 6, 2015Good topic candidatePromoted
Current status: Good article

Luccombe

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Latest comment: 17 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

There is a wrong link here for Luccombe referring to a village on the Isle of Wight. 194.246.46.15 07:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for spotting this - I've changed it to Luccombe, Somerset - for which there is not (yet) an article.— Rod talk 08:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)Reply
Have created a stub for Luccombe, Somerset Saga City 16:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

African Americans?

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Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Seems unlikely that the servicemen in question in the last section of this article were "African Americans," which I assume is used incorrectly here as a blanket term for people of black African descent. Admittedly, I know absolutely nothing about this subject, but what were the children of a bunch of African American servicemen doing in Exmoor? A citation would help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.208.120.38 (talk) 23:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

I didn't add the original comment but have now added a ref to The Independent story on this.— Rod talk 07:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)Reply

Reference tidy

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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Would anyone object if I tidy up the references on this article, perhaps using Template:Cite web, Template:Cite book, Template:Sfn etc as it seems to be a mix of citation styles at present?— Rod talk 21:53, 20 January 2015 (UTC)Reply

What else is needed before a GA nomination?

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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

What else do people think is needed to get this article to meet the Good article criteria?— Rod talk 17:12, 19 April 2015 (UTC)Reply

GA Review

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Latest comment: 9 years ago68 comments4 people in discussion
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This review is transcluded from Talk:Holnicote Estate/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hchc2009 (talk · contribs) 21:50, 20 May 2015 (UTC)Reply


I'll read through and start the review properly on Friday. Hchc2009 (talk) 21:50, 20 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

@Rodw:, how's it going? I'm conscious of the conversations at Talk:Holnicote Estate#Domesday confusion and User talk:Lobsterthermidor#Holnicote Estate again, which have left the early part of the article disputed and in poor shape. Do you reckon that resolution is likely in the near future? Hchc2009 (talk)
Sorry I've been a bit busy at work (dissertations etc must be marked for exam board deadlines) I will try to look at this again over the weekend.— Rod talk 09:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
As an update, I've now attempted to clarify the Domesday situation; I believe I've reached the best solution and anything else would probably delve into OR. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 13:44, 4 June 2015 (UTC).Reply
I've made some final tweaks (pls check that you're content with their accuracy) and it looks good to pass now. Thanks for everyone's hard work on this one! Hchc2009 (talk) 07:35, 7 June 2015 (UTC)Reply

Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct;

  • Worth linking less familiar British terms like Edward I, the Crown, seat, tithe roll, Master in Chancery, bridleway etc.
  • Purists would probably prefer "Domesday Book" vice "the Domesday Book"... ;)
  • What's a virgate?
  • A virgate is a unit of land. It was wikilinked on 2nd use - I've changed this to 1st use.— Rod talk
  • "research by J. L. Vivian" - who is/was...? (e.g. "the Victorian historian, J. Vivian")
  • " lists twelve tenements let," - tenement will mean several different things to some readers; "tenancies"?
  • "forester or ranger of Exmoor" - I suspect that many readers will be uncertain what this means
  • "Acland was a famous staghunter who used his wife's Exmoor estates of Pixton and Holnicote as his hunting seats." - given that the article is about Holnicote, not Pixton, could Holnicote come first?
  • "His hospitality to his fellow staghunters was legendary, as had been that of his father." - the second half of this feels redundant, as it was mentioned only two paragraphs up!
  • "which was the largest ever donation received by the National Trust" - "was" or "is"...? (it is unclear if the past tense implies a bigger donation after that)
  • The best I can find on this is from this site which says "The National Trust's largest single rural estate is Holnicote Estate on Exmoor". We could just remove the claim or find another form of words if no-one else can find antyhing saying whether a lareger donation has since been received.— Rod talk 21:14, 23 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • "The estate is renowned for its picturesque and unspoiled landscapes and for its historic role, together with the Acland family's other Exmoor estate of Pixton, as a spiritual home of West Country staghunting in the 18th century." - is it really "renowned" (i.e. "known or talked about by many people; famous") for its role as the spiritual home of staghunting in the 18th century? I know there is a citation, but I can't imagine very many people talk about 18th century staghunting at all, let alone its spiritual home in this estate. Is there a better term?
  • It probably can be called "the" home, since as far as I am aware there was only one staghunt in the Westcountry, (Devon & Cornwall) which developed from the Royal Staghounds kept by the ranger of Exmoor for the kings, which was taken over by Edward Dyke, but perhaps this needs more sourcing.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 22:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC))Reply
  • "In 1941 another fire seriously damaged the building. It was being used as a hotel since the granting of a licence to sell alcohol in 1936." - I couldn't work out why the granting of an alcohol license was important here (NB: it may be explained in the citation) - if it isn't, could it be "In 1936 the lodge became a hotel, but was badly damaged by fire in 1941."?
  • Perhaps: "In 1936 the lodge became a hotel, in which year it received a licence to sell alcohol", probably a key clue as to its new use, thus an important bit of info.
  • "and the British Iron Age Bury Castle" - unclear why this is "British Iron Age" (and Iron Age is linked above)
  • "In the 16th century, Selworthy Beacon was (as its name implies) " - I didn't think the bit in brackets was needed here
  • "Many of the other cottages, whose walls are painted with limewash that has been tinted creamy yellow with ochre, some of which are now rented out, are still thatched and are listed buildings." - the noun and the verbs here are at opposite ends of the sentence, which made it a bit clunky!
  • "Other traditional sights in the village include thatched cottages, a forge and an old-fashioned red telephone box. " - is there a better way of saying "traditional sights"...? it felt a big "touristy" to me...
  • Changed to "features of..."
  • "Horner is on the eastern bank of Horner Water on which there is a restored, but non-working, watermill and which is crossed by a packhorse bridge, and on the route of the Coleridge Way. There are two medieval packhorse bridges. One is known as Hacketty Way Bridge." - the number of bridges here is unclear (is the first bridge one of the two bridges? If so, is it Hacketty Way Bridge, or the other bridge?)
  • Worth deconflicting the "scheduled" and "ancient" monuments (I think the ancient monument is also a scheduled monument)

(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

  • There are lots of quotes in italics; normally the MOS asks for quotes to be simply in speechmarks.
  • Worth running the duplicate link tool over it (North Devon Staghounds, Pixton etc. are coming up)
  • Some of the quotes need in-line attribution; e.g. "Although it is "very probable" that..." - it's cited, but the text doesn't give the reader any real indication of who said this (ditto the later quotes).
  • Can I check that "Sweetworthy on the lower slopes is the site of two Iron Age hill forts or enclosures and a deserted medieval settlement." needs all five citations? (NB: if it does, no problem, but it seems quite a few for the sentence)
  • The Exmoor Historic Environment Record (EHER) covers the hills forts and medieval settlement in 2 different records and Historic England uses 3 separate citations sheets for the same things, so I would keep them.
  • Some copyright violation around "The hill is blanketed in heather..." - have a look at the cited source and you'll see what I mean...
Cheers. If it's a copy from here, then it would need independent referencing as well! The .pdf linked after it is 193 pages long, btw, and the reference really needs a page number... Hchc2009 (talk) 18:51, 22 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
Reference replaced.— Rod talk 19:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout;

  • There are several different citation styles in the article; while not a GA requirement, it would be great if they were combined into a consistent version.
  • Worth checking the formatting (e.g. fns 23 has some raw wiki formatting showing, 48 and 50 have an odd "pp. 51–." formatting, as if they're missing the second page number.)
  • The article doesn't seem to be using Barrister or Pevsner.
  • I have attempted to standardise the reference style and removed Barrister and Pevsner from the Bibliography. I did check all the reference formatting a few days ago but various styles were introduced in recent edits - hopefully resolved.— Rod talk 19:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

(b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;

  • "It includes Dunkery and Selworthy Beacons..." - the two citations for this sentence don't seem to support the claims made about what is in the estate.
  • "The estate also plays host to a point to point course on which many Exmoor hunts hold their meetings throughout the spring" - this isn't supported by the citation
  • "Respected and beloved by all the countryside," - the source for this is a mid-19th century member of the gentry and keen hunter; is it actually a reliable secondary source for this sort of claim about the views of the local workers etc., or should we be making it clearer that this was one person's opinion?
  • "One of Allerford's main attractions is the much-photographed packhorse bridge." - doesn't seem to be cited
  • "Two identical versions exist, both owned by the National Trust in Devon, one at Saltram House, the other at Killerton House." - not sure why this is actually relevant, but it needs a citation if its being used.
  • Suggested sources: [1] and [2]. Important paintings, creates much confusion amongst observant visitors to both these NT properties.
  • I still think it would be more useful to tell the reader where it actually does come from though - at the moment we don't tell the reader that this painting is from Killerton. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • It does say "Two versions exist, both owned by the National Trust in Devon, one at Saltram House, the other at Killerton House." but I don't see anything about where it was painted.— Rod talk 08:46, 24 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • If you click on the image, the original webpage it was taken from lists the painting as being from Killerton House. The other one is rather different in colour, and has different trees etc. in the background. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:30, 24 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

(c) it contains no original research.

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

  • "Pixton was the larger establishment, richly equipped with silver-plate and linen, including 73 tablecloths..." Pixton is a totally different estate; is it relevant to Holnicote to describe the tablecloths at Pixton?
  • " A letter dated 1759 written on behalf of Courtenay Walrond of Bradfield House describes the Acland hospitality..." Again, seems to be about Pixton, not Holnicote.
  • Shame, it demonstrates the scale of his hospitality in general, which was clearly remarkable, and needs to be mentioned. The two estates were used in tandem, depending on where the deer was found and killed, the day's hunt often covering great distances. Important to convey the point.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 22:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC))Reply

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.

  • "The National Trust caused much local and national controversy when it banned staghunting on the estate in the early 21st century." - the citations don't back this wording up. They suggest that there was controversy (at least nationally, I'm not sure they stress the local) when staghunting was banned, but not that the Trust caused it (which is POV language unless firmly backed by citations). Hchc2009 (talk) 07:18, 22 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • Accurate: the NT jumped the gun and banned staghunting well before the Govt. ban. Controversial as Sir Richard Acland had requested, in a non-legally binding way, that stag hunting should continue. Especially as the traditional opening meet in August was held at Cloutsham on the estate and was for decades an annual day out for hundreds of townsfolk of Porlock and Minehead with their picnics.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 22:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC))Reply

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

Illustrated, if possible, by images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content;

(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

  • Is "A similar collection of stag heads amassed by his father the 7th Baronet, and much beloved by the latter, was destroyed during a fire at Holnicote in 1779." necessary in the stag caption? It makes a for a long caption.
  • Yes, article emphasises the father valued his stag heads more than the house itself, when it burned down. The stag heads are very significant, in effect replacements for that earlier more famous collection, worthy of a couple of lines in the caption.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 22:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC))Reply
  • I still don't think this complies with the MOS on captions. 08:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for all your comments (and edits). I don't think I'm going to be able to finish them tonight and have to work all day tomorrow , but I will return to the comments which I haven't yet addressed within the next couple of days.— Rod talk 19:31, 22 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

I think most comments have been tackled. I'm aware I need to come back to "which was the largest ever donation received by the National Trust" (I'm still trying to find a source to resolve that, but if there are other outstanding issues could you remind me as I'm getting lost on the detail.— Rod talk 20:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Domesday confusion

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Latest comment: 9 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

I am rather confused about who owned this manor according to the Domesday book. It is well documented that Ralph de Limesi was granted Selworthy by the King who confiscated it from Queen Edith. The Conservation Appraisal by John Fisher (currently refs 1 and 2) states "The manor at Holnicote, also within the parish, was awarded to Ralph de Limesi by William the Conqueror ... The Luccombe family are recorded as holding both manors on behalf of the de Limesi dynasty. From 1301, by the authority of Edward I, the manors were transferred to Henry de Pynkeny with the Luccombes still in possession. In 1333 Elizabeth Luccombe married into the St. John family who then acquired manorial rights. There was a further change of ownership by marriage to the Arundell family of Trerice in Cornwall. ... The Arundells are known to have built the north aisle of the parish Church in the 17th century. Another noteworthy local family, also for some time owners of the Manor, although no record could be found of their period of tenure, was the Steynings, who probably built the south aisle, in the early 16th century, since there is a date of 1538 high up in the west-end. On the wall, there are good 16th and 17th century brasses to various members of this family. The Acland family became linked by an Arundell marriage to the Holnicote estate from 1745, and the estate eventually transferred entirely to the Aclands in 1802." (pp. 4-5) While this seems straight-forward, I have found reference to Holnicote at OpenDomesday, where it states that two nuns owned 2.5 virgates ([3]) and there is no mention of de Limesi. Also, unless it is indirect, I believe (as the article shows) that the Aclands married into the Dyke family, not the Arundells, in 1745. It all seems rather conflicting to me. Does anyone know of a decent source that could help here? —Noswall59 (talk) 18:26, 21 May 2015 (UTC).Reply

User:Lobsterthermidor is probably the most knowledgeable on these sorts of queries.— Rod talk 18:54, 21 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
This book (p194) discusses Queen Editha (dab needed presumably Edith of Wessex) & Ralph de Limesi.— Rod talk 19:07, 21 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
Yes, it appears that the Fisher source is not correct; certainly, de Limesi held Selworthy, but he did not own Holnicote. I have found another work which lists the Domesday owners and he does appear amongst them. I'm largely done with the early history section - from Domesday down to the Martyn/Blackford sale in the early 1700s. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 19:23, 21 May 2015 (UTC).Reply
The "Conservation Appraisal" by John Fisher is possibly not an ideal source, being just a potted history written as an intro for a local planning report. Better to go back to the source he no doubt used himself, namely Hancock, the standard work on the Parish of Selworthy. The Acland inheritance of Selworthy from Arundell of Trerice is a bit complex, I'm not sure if I got it right first time round in the Holnicote article, but is well set out in Hancock. For an in-depth explanation of the Arundell/Acland link, see: Pedigree of Arundell of Trerice, Vivian, J.L., ed. (1887). The Visitations of Cornwall: comprising the Heralds' Visitations of 1530, 1573 & 1620; with additions by J.L. Vivian. Exeter: W. Pollard, p.14[4]. Anne Acland's book has muddled up the Thomas Dyke Aclands in connection with this Arundell inheritance. (Lobsterthermidor (talk) 21:29, 22 May 2015 (UTC))Reply
I note some citation needed tags have been added and went looking. Under the title Hunnecota this book (The Parish of Selworthy by Hancock) has Aluric et Bris teuinus and R. de Corcelle. Should "Bristeuin" in the article be Bristeuinus?— Rod talk 16:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
I don't know why the tag has been added as the statement is supported by the reference at the end of the sentence. I am also not sure why this paragraph has been changed, effectively reverted back to how it was, why Honecote is now in capitals and why there is any need for the quotation. But, to address your query: according to the reference, the Exon Domesday book states: "William holds of Roger [de Corcelle] Hunecote. Aluric and Brictuin held it T.R.E. and gelded for half a hide and half a virgate of land...". The same claim is effectively repeated later in the Exon book: "Roger has a manor called Hunnecota, which was held by two Theigns together T.R.E. Aluric held half a hide and Bristeuin half a virgate". Both of these are printed in Chadwyck-Healey, p. 6. I assume that the "Bristeuinus" and "Bristeuin" are the same person, but I do not know which is preferred. I imagine the latter would have been what he was called in English. It seems that Lobster has removed this reference; one of his complaints was that this Hunecote or Hunnecota refers to Huntscott, a small hamlet near Wootton Courtenay; the editors of the VCH think so. But, then that was a 1906 edition and Chadwyck-Healey (in 1901) seems to think it's Holnicote; neither give their reasoning. However, the National Archives seems to think that they are references to Holnicote and not Huntscott ([5], cf. folio numbers with [6]). So I am not sure how to resolve this. Regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 09:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC).Reply

Nomenclature

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Latest comment: 9 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

It is well established that Anglo-Saxon name endings -cott have a first element which is usually the name of the first holder, in this case a man named Hone or similar, thus meaning Hone's Cottage. See e.g. Padel, O.J., Place-Names, published in Kain, Roger & Ravenhill, William, (eds.) Historical Atlas of South-West England, Exeter, 1999, pp.88-94. Holly Cottage is possible, but would be an unusual usage. Is the source quoted a specialist on Anglo-Saxon names (like Padel) or was he just guessing?(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 16:17, 25 May 2015 (UTC))Reply

Eilert Ekwall, another well respected source for English Place Names, doesn't give an entry for Holnicote but does give (Ekwall, Eilert (1960). The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-869103-7. p247) Holne - Old English holegn - Holly. Robinson, Stephen (1992). Somerset Place Names. Dovecote Press. ISBN 978-1874336037. p77 gives Holnicote "The Honey Cottage" from OE honeg and cot.— Rod talk 16:29, 25 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
I have attempted to cover the variety of possible derivations mentioned. Does Padel specifically mention Holnicote as my reading of his work is that it is mostly about Devon and Cornwall, therefore any conclusions he makes may not apply in this case. As I unfortunately don't have a copy of he book cited could you put the text here so that we can all consider the strength of the evidence for the name-cott assertion?— Rod talk 11:41, 30 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Ref for Odo - citation needed tag

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Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

A citation needed tag has been added in the middle of the sentence " The record also shows than one Odo, son of Gamelin, held a detached portion of land here." but I can't quite understand why. This source (Text of the Somerset Domesday pages 479-526 section XXXIIII. THE LAND OF ODO SON OF GAMELIN) (currently ref 3) says "Odo son of Gamelin holds of the king Locumbe [Luccombe] and Vital (holds it) of him." Therefore what is being asked for with this citation needed tag?— Rod talk 19:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)Reply

Ah, I missed this post when commenting above. The text, again in Chadwyck-Healey p. 6, states that "From the manor called Hunecota held by Roger de Curcella 1 fertine of land has been detached and is held by Odo son of Gamelin and Roger wrongly renders geld in respect of it", which is cited from "Exon. p. 475". Regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 09:51, 26 May 2015 (UTC).Reply
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Mausoleum

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Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The text mentions a mausoleum of Sir Thomas Dyke Acland 400 m from Selworthy Beacon. This probably refers to the "Wind and Weather Hut" [1] which is to my knowledge a Memorial and not a Mausoleum. Or does it actually enclose the interment space or burial space of Sir Thomas Dyke Acland? PhiRho~dewiki (talk) 17:38, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1252303
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