Talk:Holy Roller

Old discussion

I removed the following because it belongs on a page perhaps about fundamentalists or somewhere else appropriate.

"In 2005, Will Smith released a song on his album "Lost and Found" which speaks out about the intolerance that he has faced in his life from people close to him and in the media. The lyric also contains a dissertation on freedom from religious oppression and fundamentalism comparing the actions that led to the September 11th attacks to those of mainstream right wing fundamentalists. "

-- Ted Wilkes 21:37, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Holy Rollers are not literally "rolling"

I removed the specific reference to Pentecostals being Slain in the Spirit because the term is certainly broader than that applied to these churches. Many of those who oppose Pentecostalism and who think that being "Slain in the Spirit" is actually unchristian could also be guilty of being a "Holy Roller" simply because of a judgemental attitude. --One Salient Oversight 06:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality

I cannot, and will not, agree that this page is neutral. It fails to mention the thousands of people that gladly accept the term because they are, if fact, holy, yet nonjudgmental and wear the term with pride. It also shines a very poor light on many religions that have been labeled "Holy Rollers" in the past but over time have become well respected and rather established religions. (i.e. UPCI, ALJC, Assemblies of God, etc.) Boothcat4320 19:56, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Christians

We don't force you we let you make your own decisions. User: matt2005

Shakers!? Quakers!?

The line in the article about Shakers and Quakers makes absolutely no sense. These denominations did not "Shake" or "Quake". Someone should fix this as this article makes a mockery of the Wikipedia. Goaty 07:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

My understanding of the term Holy Roller

I do not believe that the term "Holy Roller" originated with the Shakers or the Quakers. According to my sources, both of whom are Pentecostal clergy, during the early years of the Holiness/Pentecostal churches in America, the term was used to degrade those who agreed with the doctrines now associated with Pentecostal/Holiness churches. It is important to note that although the term Holy Roller is often associated with Pentecostal/Holiness churches, it can also be used to refer to any member of a mainline denomination who supported the doctrines of holiness. Here's what the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th Edition)says, "NOUN: Offensive Used as a disparaging term for a member of any of various religious denominations in which spiritual fervor is expressed by shouts and violent body movements." The Holiness movement stressed the importance of living a set-apart lifestyle so as not to be conformed to the secular world. Some individuals were more radical in their lifestyle changes than others. Pentecostal church services are often known to be more expressive than other Protestant denominations and according to my sources, pioneers of the Pentecostal Movement were riddiculed for their expressive forms of worship, such as clapping, the lifting of "holy hands" and what is known by some as the "Holy Dance". On the television broadcast of a Pentecostal bishop from Memphis, Tennessee, he stated that early Pentecostals were known as Holy Rollers because it was rumored by their accusers that they rolled in sheets on the floor during their services. Here is a quote from Brother William Marrion Branham, a Pentecostal clergy in 1953 concerning the term "Holy Roller", " Would you like to know why I'm a holy-roller? I'll try to tell you from the Word of the Lord. And you know, I've done a lot of traveling for our Lord Jesus, I seen many denominational churches. But you know, I've never seen a holy-roller yet. I--I really don't know what--where they're at. I looked all over the church lists and the statistics and everything, I can't find where there's a church called holy-rollers. But you know what it is? It's just a name the devil pinned on the Church; that's all. There is no holy-roller. I've never seen one. I--the government don't know of any. So well, I--I don't know where they're at, but I... Just think, there's the devil just did that." His sermon, "Why I Am A Holy-Roller" was delivered on Sunday afternoon, 30th August 1953 at the Chicago Gospel Tabernacle in Chicago, Illinois, U.S.A.

Rewritten

I rewrote the article to present two different etymologies of the term, and positive and negative views of the less derogatory. I could not, however, get good sources, though this is in line with what I've heard before, and makes more sense. I've marked the article unsourced, anyway. I've also made it a stub, and tried to keep the content to a minimum, while still covering the basic ideas one has of a holy roller, from either side of the fence. It is still moderately tainted with my POV, perhaps, but hopefully the fact that I don't really care about holy rollers (they're mostly obsolete and obscure at this point) means it isn't too bad, so I've removed the neutrality-dispute, now that it isn't a wholly ridiculous article. --Flata 01:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Zechariah 5:1 - Revelations

As used in the late nineteenth century, "holy roller" often referred to the scroll mentioned in Zechariah 5:1 "Then I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, there was a flying scroll" and again adverted to in the Book of Revelation - which listed the bad and the good, the ones who would be destroyed in the end times, and the 144,000 who would be saved. This group also was quite interested in the Key of David, the Church of Philadelphia, and other Revelations mysticism. But the Holy roll did not refer to rolling around on the floor, but to the mystical roll with the saved and the damned. I am sure that, in common usage, it also refers to convulsions of religious fervor. But I think the listing should at least mention the other background.

Hypercallipygian (talk) 21:46, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv (talk) 14:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

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Holy Roller → Holy roller — The term is a common noun, not a proper name, and should not be capitalized. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 14:15, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support, definitely not a proper noun. Recury (talk) 20:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Round 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Born2cycle (talk) 05:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

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Comment from closer: No clear consensus among participants or reliable sources, though tertiary sources like m-w.com seem to go with proper noun, and skimming usage at secondary sources like nytimes.com seems to reveal a preference for the proper noun form over "holly roller" and "holly-roller". Tough call but at best there is no consensus to move. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Holy Roller → Holy roller — Relisting  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 22:24, 30 September 2010 (UTC) Reopened move discussion, see below. Jafeluv (talk) 19:56, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

After this discussion was closed with a consensus to move, someone reverted with the justification that "every single reference used" has the term capitalized. Firstly, reverting an action arrived at by consensus without even taking part in the discussion is not good form. Secondly, the claim is not even true. This reference, which is ref #2 and the only actual reference not behind a paywall, extensively uses the term as a common noun and capitalizes it only when it is part of the article's title. Of the three examples cited under "Usage", one has it capitalized only because it is part of the title, while the other two are using the term as part of a denominational affiliation, and all are at least 70 years old. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 00:58, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

While your personal preference may be "Holly roller", Merriam-Webster uses "Holly Roller", as do the majority of the usages in Google News archive and in books. Stick to the experts and not personal preferences, please. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

The sources are, at best, mixed. You have not responded to the part of my post where I pointed out that the only actual reference in the article (that isn't behind a paywall) uses the term as a common noun. Wordnik gives examples in lowercase, and Urban Dictionary gives one example capitalized and one in lowercase. But I'm not convinced that any of these dictionary-type references are really the best, because none of them are likely written by people actually knowledgeable about Pentecostalism. I looked at the New International Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements ("search inside the book" for "holy roller") and found two examples capitalized and two examples lowercase.

As I said, the record is mixed. It basically depends on whether you are thinking of "Holy Rollers" as an actual denomination (and no actual denomination calls itself that) or "holy rollers" as a descriptive term for people who act a certain way. In conclusion, I still maintain that Richard's unilateral page-move against consensus was out of order and should be reverted until consensus is reached. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 00:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

• Urban dictionary is not a reliable source and Wordnick states: "The definitions below are for Holy Roller. The examples and other data are for the variant you requested, holy roller." (my emphasis added) Again it is best to stick to what the dictionary uses, rather than pick and choose the examples that satisfy what you as an individual are looking to confirm. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 00:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Please discuss the content and not the editor. I am finding it difficult not to be angry at the manner with which you address me. Despite your exhortations, you yourself are picking and choosing which arguments of mine you will respond to. Several sources (including Wordnik) allow for the uncapitalized usage, and some sources (including those most knowledgeable about actual Pentecostalism) favor it.

We have both stated our cases, and others should now weigh in. I repeat that the page move should be undone until such time as a new consensus is reached, as it is out of order for you to have unilaterally made the change against consensus. I would undo it, but you have edited the redirect so that your action can now only be undone by an admin, another action that I find offensive. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 17:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

A consensus of one. Again, its better to not second guess why all the dictionary sources use "Holy Roller" instead of your preferred "Holy roller", but to stick to what is the dictionary used spelling. You should complain to the dictionary compilers rather than try and argue why they choose that spelling here. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

• Keep as "Holy Roller", both Dictionary.com and Merriam Webster online use "Holy Roller" as do the majority of hits in Google Books and my three paper dictionaries at home. No need to reinvent the wheel, stick to what the experts have already determined to be the proper way to use the term. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:11, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support not a proper name or title, simple a noun (description of a churchgoer).--Labattblueboy (talk) 00:50, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support move per my arguments above. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 14:00, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

• Keep - Two of the most widely published dictionaries used in American English use the capitalized version, additionally the cited New York Times articles does as well. These are reliable, secondary sources confirming the capitalized form is the proper format. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 16:50, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Not voting, but isn't it supposed to be a kind of colloquial proper noun, like "Quaker" and so on?--Kotniski (talk) 17:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Except that "Quaker" has become a generally accepted name for a particular denomination, while this is not true of the term in question here. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 19:17, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Meaning

But what does it mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:2193:33A3:E31B:D73C (talk) 08:21, 16 September 2016 (UTC)