Talk:Holy Spirit (Christian denominational variations)

Name of article

I think this article is great. And was really needed. I'm glad it was created. History2007 has done amazing work on this stuff. I also think the name of it is good, but I propose simply altering the order of the wording. I do believe that the words "Holy Spirit" should be first. So I'd like to change the name (move title as it were) to "Holy Spirit (Christian doctrinal variations)". That format would be more consistent with other articles. Also, arguably the main subject (that being "Holy Spirit") should probably be first in the wording. I mean, it's not that major a deal, true, but I think it might be a slight improvement that way. Again, I strongly believe (per the names of all the other articles dealing with "Holy Spirit" on Wikipedia) that the words "Holy Spirit" should be first in the name of article. Regards. Hashem sfarim (talk) 18:50, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I do not mind either way. But some day someone will say that in Wikipedia parentheses are for disambiguation. So if you can find a way to say it without parentheses that would be better. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 18:54, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

History2007 has certainly detangled much regarding these related 'Holy Spirit' articles (see Talk:Holy Spirit#Disambiguation (Updating links in other articles)). Now there are two related articles specific to Christianity: Holy Spirit (Christianity) and Holy Spirit (Christian doctrinal variations). Of those two, the first plainly and properly disambiguates from Holy Spirit (Islam) and Holy Spirit (Judaism); but as the editor notes, the second title is not ideal. Perhaps Holy Spirit (Christian doctrinal variations) would be better renamed 'Holy Spirit as Christian doctrine' (the various doctrines would naturally form the sections); this simple rename is easier than a disambiguating refocus (see #Disambiguate 'tradition' and 'doctrine'? thread.--AuthorityTam (talk) 08:00, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguate 'tradition' and 'doctrine'?

As I state immediately above, History2007 has certainly detangled much regarding these related 'Holy Spirit' articles (see Talk:Holy Spirit#Disambiguation (Updating links in other articles)). Now there are two related articles specific to Christianity: Holy Spirit (Christianity) and Holy Spirit (Christian doctrinal variations). Of those two, 'Holy Spirit (Christianity)' plainly and properly disambiguates from Holy Spirit (Islam) and Holy Spirit (Judaism); but as the editor notes, the 'Holy Spirit (Christian doctrinal variations)' title is not ideal. Rather than simply renaming the title, I considered and retired the idea of distinguishing the two articles as Holy Spirit (Christian Trinitarianism) and Holy Spirit (Christian nontrinitarianism) (retiring the idea since that disambiguation is vulnerable to objections of WP:POVFORK).
An alternate disambiguation to consider: Holy Spirit (Christian tradition) and Holy Spirit (Christian doctrine). Suggested restructure:

1). Rename this article from Holy Spirit (Christian doctrinal variations) to Holy Spirit (Christian doctrine); rename the other from Holy Spirit (Christianity) to Holy Spirit (Christian tradition).

2). Holy Spirit (Christian tradition) would retain:

• Holy Spirit (Christianity)#Etymology and usage,
• Holy Spirit (Christianity)#Biblical references,
• Holy Spirit (Christianity)#Symbolism and iconography,
• Holy Spirit (Christianity)#Gallery, and
• Holy Spirit (Christianity)#Holy Spirit Cathedrals.

3). Holy Spirit (Christian doctrine) would retain Holy Spirit (Christian doctrinal variations), and would accept certain sections moved from Holy Spirit (Christianity):

• Holy Spirit (Christianity)#Christian belief,
• Holy Spirit (Christianity)#Mainstream doctrines, and
• Holy Spirit (Christianity)#Variations in Christian doctrine, as well as retain
• Holy Spirit (Christian doctrinal variations).

--AuthorityTam (talk) 08:00, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

The problem I have with the suggested name "Holy Spirit (Christian doctrine)" is that it does not clearly indicate in the name that it's about VARIATIONS in professed "Christian doctrine". While the current name of the article makes that clear and brings that out rather nicely. So, in all honesty, I see no real big need to change it. It seems accurate and clear as it is. Regards. Hashem sfarim (talk) 06:29, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I do not mind a rename of this article to whatever gets agreed upon. But the other three are a clean-cut trio:

• Holy Spirit (Christianity)
• Holy Spirit (Judaism)
• Holy Spirit (Islam)

So those three are uniform and work well together. The title of this article, however may have some variations (pun intended). In fact do some of these denominations, say Eastern Orthodox even rely on formal doctrine as such or rely more on tradition encoded in their doxology? So I think a few names should be suggested for this article, then we can select one by popular demand. Regarding section moves, that seems too complicated right now and will involve people who also watch that page. In any case, I was planning to seriously work on that other over the next 2-3 months, but I was not planning to work on this one because I do not really know all the denominations. Anyway let suggest a few names here, then let one (or none) get selected. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 06:52, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Come to think of it, why not call it Holy Spirit (Christian denominational variations) so the issue of doctrine vs tradition in Eastern Orthodox or other cases (say Southern Baptist, or Quakers?) does not even get asked. After all this article is about how different denominations view the Holy Spirit, regardless of which part is their doctrine and which part is their tradition. But please do suggest other names. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 07:02, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Article improvements

I had almost forgotten abut this page. Now I see there are still tags on some sections. Now that it is back on the to do list, I think the way to fix it is:

• Get people from various Wikiprojects to come and check their own section. I am not sure anyone can check them all.

• I can do the Catholic and Orthodox sections, but Mormons, etc. need to be invited to fix theirs. There is no separate JW section, except for a couple of sentences, now that I checked. Perhaps you guys should write something more.

• The lede is just one sentence now, but should get fixed after all the other clean up.

I think it will probably take 2-3 weeks to get the other denominations to come over and check their sections, then the lead can just summarize those with a sentences or two for each. History2007 (talk) 07:22, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

The Mormon (Latter Day Saints) section is fairly accurate and well referenced. I have updated two links to the Doctrine and Covenants. While not apart of the Mormon Wikiproject, I am a well versed Mormon. Let me know if there is anything else that anyone wants added to the article for this section. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, History2007. Dromidaon (talk) 15:48, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. As long as you think it is accurate then that is all that the page needs. It will also be good if you, or someone from that project can watch that section, because over time unsourced material usually gets added to that and we may not exactly know what to do about it. Thanks History2007 (talk) 16:03, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

Holy Spirit (Christian doctrinal variations) → Holy Spirit (Christian denominational variations) – The article discusses variations among "denominations" rather than doctrines, and I had not thought about that when I created it. As above, some of the denominations rely more on the traditions built into their doxology rather than on formal doctrines and the term doctrine would be less applicable than denomination. Hence the requested move. History2007 (talk) 18:55, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Support though could just be moved as uncontroversial in my view. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:58, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Support Uncontroversial move. I think you can just boldly move it. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:53, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok, will do. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 10:32, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Support move, but think Theology of the Holy Spirit or perhaps some similar phrase might work just as well. John Carter (talk) 17:48, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I just moved it based on the comments before, but regarding "theology" some of these denominations have a lot of emphasis on tradition and doxology, so the current title has a wider reach in that sense. In any case, it is now the content that needs clean up.... History2007 (talk) 18:18, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make more sense to put this in the pneumatology article? ReformedArsenal (talk) 04:01, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I think the term pneumatology is not just Christian, although that article just has a Christian section. And although one could have used pneumatology in the title here, that term may be new to many readers, so this seems somewhat more obvious as a title. History2007 (talk) 08:26, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

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