Talk:Hugh Shaw (footballer, born 1896)

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Requested move 1 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 00:46, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

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Hugh Shaw (football manager) → Hugh Shaw (footballer, born 1896) – WP:NCSP. "If there are multiple footballers with the same name, use the most conclusive of the following steps: a. If the footballers have different nationalities, use their nationality in the disambiguation. b. If the footballers were born in different years, use the year they were born. c. If one of the footballers is, for example, a goalkeeper, use "(goalkeeper)", or other position as appropriate." Both of the Hugh Shaw football players were Scottish, so they cannot be disambiguated by nationality. Although Hugh Shaw (born 1896) was a successful football manager, he was also a top-level player who made over 200 league appearance fo Hibs and won a Scottish league championship with Rangers. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:08, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, provisionally. Per WP:NCPDAB, 'the disambiguator is usually a noun indicating what the person is noted for being in their own right', if Hugh Shaw is known primarily for being a manager he should be titled as such, as with other cases like Stephen Kenny (football manager), Ivan Jovanović (football manager) or Michael Beale (football coach). It seems there has been a move from some users to make this project page description more of a norm, but upper level Wikipedia guideline guidance should take precedence. I'm happy to change to support if the proposer shows that Shaw is not clearly known primarily as a manager, per Wikipedia:DETERMINEPRIMARY, the short narrative description isn't convincing as it stands. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:20, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Comparing Shaw, who won a league title as a player and played hundreds of top division games, with Stephen Kenny (four career games played) or Michael Beale (zero career games played) is ludicrous. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

You do make a fair point, but not addressing the broader issue; also strong words considering you were relying on a comparison between the manager of Port Glasgow juniors and a national team manager for an argument recently, if you don't mind me saying! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

You're comparing apples with oranges. The point about the Port Glasgow juniors manager is that he exists, and therefore creates some ambiguity (however small) with the Scotland manager. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

BTW, WP:NCSP is the relevant convention here, not WP:NCPDAB. As NCP itself puts it, higher up the same page: "Article titles for certain groups of people are dealt with on more specialized guideline pages". NCSP is one of those "specialized guideline pages". Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, no. Secondly, well, theoretically they are both relevant, but the page in question doesn't support your idea that football managers are a subcategory or less of a category than football players and thus automatically cover them (any more than, say, philosophers or writers, like Albert Camus would if his name were more common), which you are relying heavily on; your interpretation of WP:NCSP is baseless, and doesn't subvert WP:NCDAB and WP:PRIMARYUSAGE.Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:49, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support to match standard naming conventions, naming players who became managers as 'footballer'. GiantSnowman 18:52, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom and GiantSnowman. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.