Talk:Ibrahim Kamal

Name variants

This person's full name is "Ibrahim Aqil Kemal", but there is currently no redirect at that name to this article. At the 2004 Summer Olympics, he was also known as Ibrahim Kamal by the BBC and other English language sources. Of the two sources that are used to support the name Ibrahim Aqil are both in Arabic, not English. One is no longer accessible and a machine translation of the other translates his last name as "Aqeel", so the lead is imprecise. A recent undiscussed move added the parenthetical disambiguator of "(taekwondo)" because his name is shared by the Lebanese militant, Ibrahim Aqil, a Hezbollah leader. Wouldn't it be better if this article was naturally disambiguated by this athlete's full name? - Cameron Dewe (talk) 22:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I found an archive version of the other Arabic language source that is used to support this person's name as Ibrahim Aqil. It also translates as "Aqeel". I now have serious doubts about the best title for this article. The naming convention for articles is to use English, and if there is established English usage to use that in preference to the non-English sources. I now think this article should probably be moved back to Ibrahim Kamal because that is the name he competed under at the 2004 Athens Olympics, where he came fourth in the competition, with the best ever result up until then for a Jordanian at the Olympics.[1] - Cameron Dewe (talk) 23:57, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 21 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per discussion below. Best, (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans 06:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

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Ibrahim Aqil (taekwondo) → Ibrahim Kamal – This is the name that he competed under at the Olympics, see [2] (page 3) and [3]. He was also called this in the press at the time [4]. — Goszei (talk) 04:17, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support as per my earlier comments, above. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 09:07, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Support. I think this could have been moved uncontroversially without need for a move request. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:09, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the page can only be moved by an admin, so the best way to do this is to do a move request, or to apply for RM technical request. Natg 19 (talk) 10:12, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. Our article's first sentence says "Ibrahim Aqil Kamal[1] (Arabic: ابراهيم عقيل كمال; born April 14, 1979, in Amman), more commonly known as Ibrahim Aqil..." If he's more commonly known as Ibrahim Aqil, then that's what we should use per WP:COMMONNAME. There needs to be a source analysis to show which name is more common.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 14:04, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

  There's no indication that he is more commonly known as Ibrahim Aqil. Every English-language reference cited in the article uses "Ibrahim Kamal". Support. 162 etc. (talk) 16:38, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

  @162 etc., I couldn't find many reliable secondary sources in English on him. Here are sources that use "Ibrahim Aqil": Olympics News, Jordan Times, Zawya (which seems to be a reprint) and MenaFn (which seems to be run by Al Bawaba). Sources that call him "Ibrahim Kamal": BBC Sport.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

• FYI, I didn't find a single English RS for either "Ibrahim Aqeel" or "Ibrahim Aqil Kamal".VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:27, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

  @VR: I think you might have misunderstood my argument. There are five criteria for a title, one of which is that it be Recognizable. The heading of the guideline you refer to is: Use a commonly recognizable name, not just a common name. If you apply WP:COMMONNAME, alone, as use a "common name" found in the sources, your choices are going to be "Ibrahim Kamal" or a version of his name in Arabic, such as " ابراهيم عقيل كمال ", not variants of "Ibrahim Aqil ..." None of the Arabic sources provide an English translation of his name. Machine translations of the Arabic sources used to support the name "Ibrahim Aqil" currently render "Ibrahim Aqeel", instead, so this name technically fails verification as the sources do not provide a reliable translation to English. The guideline WP:ESTABLISHED advises to only use the English sources if this is the case. Unfortunately, many English Wikipedia readers, like me, are unable to read Arabic fluently, so must use English. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 20:17, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, I understand. Did you see the English sources I provided above? What I'm saying is that English sources seem to use "Ibrahim Aqil" or "Ibrahim Kamal" (though I've so far found more sources for the former than the latter). English sources don't use "Ibrahim Aqeel" or "Ibrahim Aqil Kamal", so we shouldn't consider those names as possible candidates for this article's title.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:36, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Vice regent: None of the English language sources you cite have previously been used in the article to support the name "Ibrahim Aqil". Of the four, 3 credit the Jordan Times as their source, and the remaining one is quite recent, being a TV website for the 2024 Olympic Games. When he competed at the Athens Olympics in 2004, the IOC and English media, not just the BBC, reported his name as Ibrahim Kamal and that is the title his article in Wikipedia was first created under. This is the recognizable name in the official records of the time. I noticed that this Taekwondo specific source [5] now refers to him as "KAMAL AQIL, Ibrahim", so perhaps his full name is "Ibrahim Kamal Aqil". Perhaps this athlete has changed, or corrected, the name he competes under since the 2004 Olympics. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Support per name he competed as in olympics. Scuba 02:25, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.