Talk:Immortality in fiction/Archive 1

Archive 1

Another one of these

Created especially to relieve the Immortality article of so much cruft and trivia.

Do with it what you will.

—Yamara ✉ 15:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Has the author of this page done anything except a) played role-playing games, b) watched Star Trek The New Generation, and c) read comic books? Even with my limited reading I can name two significant literary works dealing with immortality that this numbskull has never encountered: 'All Men are Mortal' by Simone de Beauvoir, and 'The Immortals' by Martin Amis. I'm sure there must be a ton of others. Manga does not count as literature. Tolkien barely counts as literature. Douglas Adams, while entertaining, is not literature.

Donaldholder (talk) 08:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

By what impartial standard do you judge satire like Adams or an epic drama like the Lord of the Rings to be any less of an example of literature then flatland, a tale of two cities, Gulliver's travels, or Beowulf? Will someone also add the series New Amsterdam into this mess of a list somewhere? 24.17.208.26 (talk) 07:51, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

The title just reads 'Immortality in fiction', I wasn't aware the quality of literature was relevant? I was noticing that an old but popular television show, 'Bewitched' claimed its witches were immortal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.70.32.216 (talk) 05:23, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

There should be a distinction made between biological immortality and true immortality

If you just switch bodies, sure, you're immortal in a sense. But if you're shot or the sun explodes, you’re screwed.

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 (talk) 01:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Another example of a SF-Novel dealing with immortality is 'To live forever' from the sixties by Jack Vance, which shows a society were immortality was discovered a while ago by scientists, but is only granted to a few chosen individuals (who deserve or earned the immortal status). These chosen ones provide the carefree and rich elite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.183.85.79 (talk) 10:39, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Vampires

Aha, this article has vampires written down as fiction! Ignorance is bliss. The Unbeholden (talk) 05:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Reverted edits?

What is the problem with the edits I just made? The grammar in that section is terrible, some of the statements about One Piece and the Pirates movies are just outright wrong, and the two are smushed together in a single section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.127.173.78 (talk) 21:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Former category

• Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_June_3#Category:Fictional_immortals

The above is a list from the category, which is noted in the WP:CFD link above. - jc37 03:08, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Begin to delete many word categories from the articles into this article.--74.34.79.125 (talk) 16:26, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Good Source

The definition of this article is true from the sources, because it is an ability and a trait, while the word "Invincibility" is the actual word for being untouched or harmless from anything and anyone, and possibly live forever. Thus, Immortality, is one web out of many powerful source phrases creating the huge spider web of "Invincibility", thus the article is a good source, this is the reason there's a difference between Immortality and Invincibility.—GoShow (...........)00:19, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

teachers and there purpose

teachers are here to teach you take advantage while you still can — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.68.109 (talk) 19:46, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

RE: Vampire Exist Real

i have the hindu priest email, it happens i was bitten and got a blood transfussion vampires Exist and its only those foolish ones who are afraid that will say vampires dont exist, Santosoliverdinero@gmail.com thats my email you can email me and i will direct you on ways to become a vampire, and also you can call +233231791514, i do also have the hindu priest contact and you can find out the email from me the hindu priest email is vampirelordtransformerchanging@gmail.com, there is never a game play on these, real and legit, if interested in all these then take a deep of faith on it and have things go for better. Santos oliver by name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Santosoliver (talk • contribs) 17:21, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Darth Sidious

According to the Star Wars Expanded Universe Darth Sidious (aka The Emperor) can avoid death by transferring his soul (or how it is called in Star Wars) to a clone body. --MrBurns (talk) 23:47, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Immortality in fiction/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Whiteguru (talk · contribs) 01:02, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Starts GA Review. The review will follow the same sections of the Article. Thank you -- Whiteguru (talk) 01:02, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

 

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Observations

   HTML document size: 130 kB
   Prose size (including all HTML code): 29 kB
   References (including all HTML code): 60 kB
   Wiki text: 30 kB
   Prose size (text only): 13 kB (2058 words) "readable prose size"
   References (text only): 8942 B

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

• Well written, well referenced.

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

• The lead is a well written telling of what is to come in the article.

1. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

• A wide excursus of written material is compressed in the history section, citing from Fantasy and the Encyclopaedia of Science Fiction. A well scribed section, succinct.
• The Causes section touches many bases, and reveals a strong and scholarly grasp of SF and Fantasy along with related genres such as gothic, horror and early speculative fiction engaging in one or another form of endless life. The mention of Undeath is an intriguing aspect of the vampire / zombie genre.
• Good coverage of the different types of immortality, its causes, and the numbers and that effect on how the narrative unfolds. Corporeal and incorporeal forms. Good observations here.
• Utopia v. dystophia: exists in these narrative worlds of immortality. Ditto whether immortality is universal or not; and the existence of the afterlife. All excellent and thought provoking inclusions.

1. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

• Yes, NPOV is preserved in presenting all these different, fictional presentations of immortality, along with the positive and negative aspects of same.

1. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

• Page created 16 February 2008
• Page has 516 edits by 276 editors
• ClueBot NG has been on the page 3 times suggesting this page is not subject to vandalism
• Examination of page history shows stability.
• 90 day page views = 9,597 views = 105 page reads daily

1. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

• One image on page
• File:British Museum Flood Tablet.jpg = Creative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication.

1. Overall:

• The Talk page reveals that one or another has come with their particular (or peculiar) favourite take on this theme. This has been rescued with a strong, scholarly, impartial presentation of a far-reaching and challenging overview of many aspects of immortality in fiction. Excellent work on references. --Whiteguru (talk) 01:00, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

 

 Passed

 

Article mixes immortality with long life, which are not the same thing

I don't know many of the works mentioned in the article, but I have read Methuselah's Children by Robert A. Heinlein, and it is not about immortals. Members of the Howard families live about twice as long as the humans of their time (the book is set in the 2100s), so using them in the context of immortality is incorrect. It's unfortunate, but understandable, that the GA reviewer Whiteguru wouldn't have known this—at least one of the cited sources does not make clear that while the Howards have to find new identities when they outlive the old ones, this isn't an endless process: their bodies give out and they die at some point in their second century (or, very unusually, make it into their third). I would argue that the statement earlier in the article, The most common form of immortality is that of an individual living a life with an extended duration is, in fact, contrary to the definition of immortality, which is being exempt from death, or being able to live forever. (Since it's fiction, seemingly living an indefinite period is probably reasonably equivalent.) Living for 140 years rather than 70 (or 200 rather than 100) is not, by any reasonable construction, immortality. Also pinging the editor who nominated the article to be a Good Article, TompaDompa, in the hopes that these issues can be addressed. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:06, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Interesting. Both sources about Methuselah's Children are by Gary Westfahl; The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Science Fiction and Fantasy chapter is explicitly about both immortality and longevity, and the review of The Age of Adaline says As Adaline gradually realizes what has happened to her, she must radically change her lifestyle in ways that have long been recognized in other stories about immortals. First, she must conceal her condition by constantly traveling and adopting new identities, because otherwise both governments and private individuals would try to capture her and place her in a laboratory to discover her secret – the problem faced by the Howard Families of Heinlein’s Methuselah’s Children (1941, 1958), Ben Richards of the short-lived television series The Immortal (1969), and many others. Westfahl seems not to distinguish between immortality and longevity all that carefully, and that turns out to be a recurring pattern with authors writing about the concept in fiction. This has been noted by for instance Brian Stableford in Science Fact and Science Fiction: An Encyclopedia's entry on "Longevity" (it is not surprising that the prospect of cheating death by acquiring unnatural longevity is one of the enduring fascinations of the human imagination, lavishly represened in myth, legend, folklore, and literature. Such evasions are often labelled "immortality" but the label is misleading, [...]) and The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction's entry on immortality (What is usually involved is, strictly speaking, extreme longevity and freedom from ageing). So in that sense, this article follows the literature on the subject. As for Methuselah's Children, The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction calls it "near-immortality" in their entry on Robert A. Heinlein and this source by John Martin Fischer and Ruth Curl on the taxonomy of immortality (cited in the article) calls the members of the Howard Families "immortals in a mortal world", for what it's worth. At any rate, I have replaced the Methuselah's Children example with another one. TompaDompa (talk) 23:05, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for making the change. It's an unfortunate comment on scholarship that such shortcuts are being taken, and understandable that you'd taken them in good faith, not having read the book in question. The Howard Families were basically created by a short-lived millionaire (Ira Howard) setting up a foundation that encouraged people from long-lived families to marry each other, and their life expectancy kept growing, but though they lived well into their second century while remaining healthy and active and (with various treatments) appearing youngish, time ran out and they would die within three months of starting to deteriorate. So not immortality at all. Lazarus Long is introduced in that book, and does go on to live hundreds of years according to books published decades later, but while it's hinted at in the first book's denouement, that's because the human race, deprived of the Howard Families and their supposed secret to extending life, found their own medical treatments to do the extending, though not to turn the clock back. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:24, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Count of St. Germain

No mention of the literature or other works featuring the Count of St. Germain? Viriditas (talk) 09:06, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

In writing this article, I tried to reflect what the sources writing about the topic of immortality in fiction focus on and to use examples in a way that would serve the prose (as opposed to adding examples for their own sake). As a result, a lot of examples that could have been added weren't (there are no examples at all from video games, for instance). TompaDompa (talk) 16:17, 27 September 2021 (UTC)