Talk:Private schools in the United Kingdom

Requested move 27 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move. Editors in favor of the move have provided evidence and policy based arguments in support of their position. (non-admin closure) BilledMammal (talk) 14:30, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

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Independent school (United Kingdom) → Private schools in the United Kingdom – "Private school" is the WP:COMMONNAME in the UK. It is also consistent with the recently moved private school (see Talk:Private school#Requested move 30 November 2022). Per ngrams, it seems "independent" was more common in the past when applied to the UK, but that is not the case anymore ([1]). Google scholar also shows more results for "private school" (For England: [2] [3], for UK: [4] [5]). The media also uses "private school" more frequently, for example the BBC ([6] [7]). Even more pronounced difference in the Guardian ([8] [9]). I am happy to discuss other options with "private school" in the title, the main issue is to move to the more common name. Vpab15 (talk) 15:35, 27 January 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. -- Dane ^talk 16:33, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Google is far too clumsy as a tool, especially when English variants differ over the semantics of the same words. And the links you provided show a more nuanced picture than you've set out. On the substance, "private" school has connotations which "independent" school does not: the latter is a more inclusive and broader term which better captures the variations in the different types of institution sitting under the label. And "independent" does not imply secrecy - or suggest that they are in some way inaccessible to members of the public - in the way that "private" does. Wiki-Ed (talk) 16:24, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

  The links cearly show "private" is more common than "independent". All links agree with that. So not sure where the nuance comes from. Not sure why you say "private" implies secrecy . Never seen "private" used that way. Also, I disagree "independent" is more inclusive. It sounds as exclusive as "private" if not more. In any case that is the whole point of private schools, that not just anyone can go. Vpab15 (talk) 17:17, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

How does "independent" in any way sound more exclusive than "private" - they have completely different meanings. "Not just anyone can go": really? The only limitation is an entrance exam - same as a state grammar school - and to some extent funding (on the basis that bursaries are relatively limited for those who cannot afford to pay). 'Private' implies some sort of limited clique determined by class, race, political affilication, or religion. As for Google: if we trust it to pick up phrases properly (which we shouldn't) then what your search is showing is just the difference between usage of the specific phrases you selected; it does not account for other formulations or for context or the volume of literature which Google does not include in its corpus, the origin of the literature that is/is not included, nor whether that other literature ought to be weighted more favourably. I.e. it's not reliable. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:30, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

The only limitation is an entrance exam - same as a state grammar school - and to some extent funding. Haha, that was really funny. According to [10], the average fees are £14,940 per school year. Very affordable. And you can always sell one of your Rolls-Royces to pay for it if you are a bit short of cash. More seriously, per my comment below both terms are used interchangeably. The evidence I provided might be limited (all evidence is), but it is much better than the one you have provided, which is none whatsoever. Vpab15 (talk) 21:47, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose: please read this and all my arguments here (which I'm thinking of having reviewed). YorkshireExpat (talk) 19:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

  Apart from ngrams, I provided other pieces of evidence. They all agree the proposed name is more common. Do you have any evidence that contradicts that? Vpab15 (talk) 20:06, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. Just a couple of links to show that both terms are used interchangeably within the same text ([11] [12]). Even the Independent Schools Council uses the term "private school" ([13]). Vpab15 (talk) 19:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Support per WP:COMMONNAME and also the fact that, in modern usage, an independent school can also refer to any school that is independent of local authority control,[14] including state schools such as academies, CTCs, free schools, etc which are not fee-paying "private" schools. This article only focusses on the traditional usage (private schools) and not on the modern usage, so to avoid confusion it would be better to move to Private schools in the United Kingdom as this name is more specific to the type of school that this article covers.ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 18:01, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Support per WP:COMMONNAME;approaching my eighth decade, based in UK, I can say I have never heard anyone using independent school in a conversation. This name is a a very successful re-brand dating from the 1980's. My support is somewhat reluctant as to me a private school is a school in private ownership with the objective of providing income for an individual or corporation. However there has been a shift and private school now in the English speaking world means 'non-governmental'. Going back to my opening statement, I have heard many variations on themes such as: 'He/she/they of course send their children to private school'; 'Yeah, my parents send me to private school'; 'How on earth can I afford private school fees for my kids!' Hjamesberglen (talk) 16:27, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Tim Nice-but-Dim"

I keep hearing references to this been a phenomenon associated exclusively with British private schools, but not being a native, I am not sure about this subject. Could someone more informed add a section about this to the article? 31.94.60.127 (talk) 00:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)