Talk:Innes Ireland

Departure from Lotus

>> Ireland upset Lotus boss Colin Chapman and the team sponsors by giving up his car to Stirling Moss of the rival Rob Walker team at the 1961 Italian Grand Prix.

Anyone got any sort of citation for that? Motor Sport's race report would seem to suggest that it was partly Chapman's idea (bodywork was swapped between the cars which wouldn't have happened without his consent) and the teams all ran without sponsors then anyway. Lotus' relationship with Walker was quite amicable as they were his best customer and at that point Moss was the only man to have won a championship race in a Lotus; Chapman would have preferred a works car to win, sure, but he'd rather Walker won than the Ferraris. I don't think there was ever a definitive explanation for him being sacked - Ireland initially blamed Clark but later Chapman, who felt Clark was the better prospect and needed Ireland out of the way, while Trevor Taylor stated it was a simple disagreement over money, while Chapman never really went on the record about it.

The Monza thing sounds like made-up rubbish from someone who doesn't understand how close the British teams were when it came to trying to pull one over Ferrari, bluntly. Tom Prankerd (talk) 23:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I found a ref for the statement here, but I'll check other sources for further confirmation. DH85868993 (talk) 10:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Word-for-word the same, wonder if this page was the source or vice-versa. Sadly Motor Sport's online archive seems to be paywalled or defunct (the Monza non-incident is covered in the October 1961 edition, test will follow), but the ever-excellent Don Capps doesn't mention it here; Small states that Chapman simply thought Clark and Taylor were the way forward; both are sources I'd rate over (a very nicely written) bio on a car parts site, as is Jenkinson (who was actually there).

MOTOR SPORT Vol. XXXVII No. 10, October 1961, page 855: "While last-minute preparations were going on in the paddock the Lotus contingent were up to some craft last-minute shuffling, for Moss ad definitely decided against using the V8 car, and Ireland had offered him his works car. Behind closed garage doors the works Lotus was being fitted with the complete top of the Walker-Lotus dark blue bodywork, retaining its' own dark green lower portion, and the Moss number 28 was being attached. Meanwhile, the dark blue Lotus was being fitted with the pale green top from the spare U.D.T. car, as the works top would not fit, and Ireland's number 38 was being affixed."

There's a colour picture of Moss racing the resulting hybrid Lotus here. The extract shows events that could not have happened without Chapman's knowledge, that the car swap wasn't something spontaneous and demonstrates Lotus' relationship with its' customer teams. As for sponsors, look up any picture of a 1961 works Lotus and tell me who their sponsors were.

Tom Prankerd (talk) 13:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Addendum: also one wonders why Ireland wasn't sacked after the Monza race if that was the cause... Chapman already had Trevor Taylor and Peter Arundell on the books as it was. Contracts weren't really the same at the time - if a team fired a driver they fired them then and there (e.g. Ferrari with Behra or Surtees) with none of this finishing the season business (e.g. Damon Hill being 'fired' by Williams well ahead of the end of the 1996 season). Tom Prankerd (talk) 13:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

All your comments make good sense. In addition, page 49 of Doug Nye's Theme Lotus says "At Monza, Moss' machinery was tired, and Ireland offered him his works 21 with Chapman's approval" (my italics). It goes on to explain the reason for Ireland's dismissal at the end of the season: "Quite simply his unruly life-style and less-than-single-minded dedication made the burgeoning skills of Jim Clark a better bet for Chapman." I think that's pretty definitive, so I have removed the challenged statement and clarified the reasons for his sacking (but you're welcome to edit it further). DH85868993 (talk) 14:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Innes Ireland. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140507000508/http://www.mytholmroyd.info/people.html to http://www.mytholmroyd.info/people.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:17, 29 November 2017 (UTC)