Talk:International child abduction in Mexico

First article

This is my first Wikipedia article. I have done my best to cite references but am still new to citing sources in general and specifically on Wikipedia. Many of my references are to other sites online but I'm aware that additional details are required above and beyond the hyperlink. I hope to go through and improve these references shortly.

COI disclaimer: My son was abducted to Mexico and remains illegally held there against the court orders of both US and Mexican courts.

--Cybermud (talk) 01:24, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

"Reads like an essay"

Thanks for improving all the ref links on Child Abduction to Mexico. I guess there's a tool that helped automate that but, in any event, I was dreading doing that.

You tagged the article w/ "essay" and I would like to address that but I'm not sure why you tagged it that way (or that I agree with it.) Could you elaborate on why you added that tag? The wiki link points to these causes:

1. Primary (original) research
2. Personal inventions.
3. Personal essays
4. Discussion forums.
5. Journalism

but I'm not sure which prompted your tagging.

Cheers,

--Cybermud (talk) 22:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, thanks for the time you've put into this (international child abduction to Mexico). I'm not sure why you're removed the {{quotefarm}} tag when fully 70% of the article text consists of material lifted directly from primary sources, though; that should be restored. The {{essay}} tag covers a number of interlinked problems, primarily that the article seems to presently advance an argument rather than a description. The "Abduction by the Numbers" section, for instance, contains only two footnotes and makes all sorts of arguments and conclusions which, even if drawn directly from the sources, read like personal interpretation. There's also the matter of the article being presently mislabelled, as in its current form it concentrates entirely on US->Mexico abductions. Moving on from here, the use of quotations directly from primary sources will have to be severely curtailed, and any cases where an argument or conclusion is made should be either a) referenced directly to reliable secondary sources or b) removed. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I wondered whether you intended to encompass the State Dept. Compliance Report sections on Mexico as "quotes" rather than just sections which literally quoted (with quotes ""), of which there were several. The reality is that the compliance reports are essential primary material and copyright free due to being government published works. It would certainly be possible to summarize them but I feel it contributes to the article greatly in several ways to provide a faithful copy of each report chronologically. Perhaps, better to move this to the 'talk page' for the article? I agree that the article, as it stands today, has substantially more content on the abduction of American children, since that is my primary area of knowledge, though I have plans to add sections on abductions form Canada and Spain where I have some limited material, and plan to expand on the rest of it in a fashion that is not US specific (and hope others will do so as well), in light of which I would maintain that the article itself is not mis-named but lacking in several areas that make it incomplete today. In closing, there is absolutely no personal opinion, though some "interpretation" if you want to call saying that "1600 is a 95% year over year increase on 821" (I would maintain it is merely a statement of mathematical fact) in the "Abduction by the numbers" section (except perhaps a penchant for wordsmithing in the title). The referenced sources say exactly those things (not verbatim but close enough).--Cybermud (talk) 00:11, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

So, I've reviewed Abduction by the Numbers and am not seeing "all sorts of arguments and conclusions" but perhaps my extensive study of the subject is preventing me from appreciating that naive interpretation. As I've noted on this page I do have a bias, well above and beyond, being very well informed on the subject matter as I have a son that was abducted to Mexico. A situation that creates a bias great enough that one might reasonably say it constitutes a conflict of interest. As an engineer and advocate of the scientific method, I work hard to view this issue through as detached a lens as possible but I am only human. Part of my effort to be as free of bias as possible (and prevent the appearance of bias) has been lifting ideas completely from other primary sources and subtly rewording them (for copyright purposes) rather than restating them in entirely different, yet equivalent ways. The abduction by the numbers section is drawn directly from the "only 2" references I cited (in addition to the State Department non-compliance reports where the numbers originate from -- as stated explicitly). While the wording may lack the appropriate encyclopedic tone, it would not come across as "personal opinion" if one takes the time to read the references. As such, I am removing the essay tag. --Cybermud (talk) 00:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a repository for primary source material; one problem with this article as it stands is that so much of it consists of directly quoted primary material that the subject of the article really becomes the reports rather than their subject. In order to properly focus the article on the actual subject of abduction it would be best if the factual material in said reports were to be externalised and then cited using direct references. That's a significant amount of work, and it's not going to get attention from copyeditors if the cleanup tags added for that purpose are removed. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense. I actually read the article from start to finish and realized how much there was in those in those reports as I struggled to get through them all with their various year over year repetitions of similar or identical problems. I surrounded them all in collapsible text templates (hope that is considered proper usage because I really like the effect) and will start working on a summary that highlights the noteworthy points of the overall history.--Cybermud (talk) 19:43, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

MOS:COLLAPSE no longer forbids the use of collapsing sections in prose, but still discourages it. In this case, I don't see that the collapsing sections are necessary if they are properly discussed in the existing prose anyway. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:16, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I will move these to WikiSource and link to them there... once I figure out how.--Cybermud (talk) 23:20, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

New Sections

I added the new sections "Mexican Central Authority", "Problems Locating Children", "Corruption in Mexico" and "Legislative and Judicial Problems." These sections are still a work in progress requiring additional references, content and editing but I wanted to get them started due to Chris Cunningham (not at work) justified concerns that this article was "presently mislabled" due to the fact that its content was almost entirely US specific. While these sections are needed, and speak to that concern, the US will always remain disproportionately affected by this problem due to the large shared border and massive immigration where 20 million Mexicans and Mexican American's live in the US. Likewise any discussion of the drug war in Mexico will be highly US centric since the overwhelming amount of trafficking efforts are focusing on meeting the high US demand for narcotics.--Cybermud (talk) 22:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Abduction from Spain to Mexico

I will be adding this section shortly.

I'm afraid most references will be in Spanish though I will try to use English sources as much as possible.--Cybermud (talk) 13:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Article Name Change

I think the name of this article should be changed to International Child Abduction in Mexico. "to Mexico" artificially limits the discussion to only incoming abductions and, in hindsight, it's difficult to adequately treat the issue without also accounting for outgoing and domestic abductions.

...Will need to pursue process for requested a name change (move?)--Cybermud (talk) 05:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

New sections

I've been adding a number of new sections, many of which only have stub type content. Since a lot my initial work on this article is my brain dump on the various aspects of this issue having these small introduction sections serves as a reminder to me, or others, to expand on the section, all of which are of critical relevance to the article (eg the section "Locating Children in Mexico"). Am still struggling with what the optimal organization should be but I think it's improving over the course of a couple re-orgs.--Cybermud (talk) 17:27, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Quote Farm

I think I've removed enough of the quotations to remove the quote farm tag. All direct quotes besides that of Congressional testimonies have been removed completely, though besides that there are a couple sections that need work.

"Convention on the Rights of the Child" explicitly lists the articles relevant to international abduction. These should be removed and summarized and this section should be expanded with details as to the Conventions general usage and importance in Mexico.

US State Department Compliance Reports This section was huge.. Although there is probably no better source of primary material on the operation of the Hague Convention in Mexico it's tedious to read them all. At the same time, there is much to be gained by doing so for those seeking additional detail and looking them up in the section on Mexico in each of the relevant reports is orders of magnitude more so. As a reasonable compromise I created collapsible sections for each of the nine yearly reports' sections on Mexico. Doing this emphasizes the need for a summary of the nine reports to allow the more casual reader the ability to get the important points without expanding the sections.--Cybermud (talk) 21:57, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I added some introduction the State Dept. Compliance Reports. Still needs work, including references copied over to that section from other parts in the article (It's primarily based on the Tom Johnson report.)--Cybermud (talk) 03:24, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

eh.. really too much history of the reports including the history and politics involved in their creation, particularly since most of it is of little relevance to Mexico. It needs to be summarized further. The additional detail, while interesting, is better suited for a seperate article on the Compliance Reports, which I have also started Hague Abduction Convention Compliance Reports--Cybermud (talk) 16:20, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

International Child Abduction

I've created the generic International child abduction article (and replaced the prior child abduction redirect.) I'm hoping I can pick up some knowledgeable editors from this article to help work on it, but information that is not specific to Mexico should be put there rather than have repetitions in the all the country specific articles (Mexico, Brazil and Japan to date.)--Cybermud (talk) 06:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Prevention and Recovery of children

There needs to be a section on recovery of children in Mexico and another on the prevention of an abduction to Mexico. Much of the public interest surrounding ICA topics in general is tied to one of these two specific areas. While the rest of the article does a good job of describing the broader topic and provides the backdrop these two sections would be a good place to distill that into what might be described as practical or actionable advice for parents, families, attorneys and judges. The sections will also provide provide a place for a lot of relevant material I have that has not really fit well into existing sections.--Cybermud (talk) 08:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

What sort of child abduction

Child Abduction can have many forms. Such as kidnapping for ransom, source of child labour for factories, source of infants for adoption, parental custody disputes. These all have quite different motivating factors and appropriate official responses. Are these forms of child abduction all major issues in Mexico in particular, or only some of them ? The article is rather full of buzzwords but provides very little contextual basis on the prevalent forms of child abduction.Eregli bob (talk) 04:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

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