Talk:Irish anti-immigration protests (2022–present)

Name of article

@Mullafacation: The name of the article might have to be altered again in the light of new additions. I had considered adding the Ashtown incident myself, but I didn't know if it was going to count as part of protests against "Transitional shelters" or not, since the camp in Ashtown was not an official/government-run transitional shelter. Furthermore, the Wednesday night protest in Finglas which led to an arrest just seemed to be against immigration in general, not a local shelter specifically.

I wonder if the article is going to have to shift to a title such as "2022–2023 Irish anti-immigration protests" or something similar? What would you think about that? CeltBrowne (talk) 18:18, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

 Works for me I always disliked my new name for the article, and none of the media coverage uses the term "transitional shelter" so I would agree it should change. What was holding me back was the counter-protest in Fermoy not being anti-immigration (but it still is directly addressing the anti-immigration protests and would be notable in an article about anti-immigration protests) and also that I was unsure if some of the other protests counted as "anti-immigration" but I guess even without the hijacking, a lot of the protests are calling for asylum seekers to leave their town but your suggestion does sound better and is how it is referred to in the media. And what the protests are notable for their anti-immigration elements, so even if some protests are about refugee rights or advance consultation, I think your suggestion is perfect. Otherwise we could always go with the broader 2022–2023 Irish refugee shelter protests but if there's no problem you can see, I'd go ahead and change it to your one. – Mullafacation {◌͜◌ talk} 18:38, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

It's tough, this is an evolving story and I think you were trying to be as neutral as you could be with the original "transitional shelter protests" title. I think that title suited this story when it began, but now the movement is (arguably) changing nature and becoming more broad. As you said, the term "transitional shelter protests" is not being used by any of the national media. It's case of us having to adapt to where the story has gone. So yeah, I think going ahead with "2022–2023 Irish anti-immigration protests" might be the right call for now, and look, the title can always be changed again if we need to re-adapt it once more down the road. CeltBrowne (talk) 19:04, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done I did it myself because I knew all the pages to clean up, otherwise I would have let you do it. – Mullafacation {◌͜◌ talk} 19:33, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Adding on to this conversation from last year, what strikes me is the overall theme of the protests and riots (and therefore of the page) is not immigration but refugees or those seeking asylum. Whether the protestors believe the asylum seekers are a false flag or not - they still are agitating against granting refuge, not against immigration.

I haven't seen any protests outside the Google building, or meat factories, where many immigrants work.

Should this page be renamed to reflect that? Perhaps "Irish anti-refugee protests (2022-present)" [edited my own post]Wikiejd2 (talk) 19:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikiprojects

Just wondering why the article is included in Wikiproject Irish republicanism? The protests have nothing to do with Irish republicanism (or indeed Irish nationalism as it's traditionally understood!). Some of the protest ringleaders are in fact espousing opinions and rhetoric more usually associated with English/UK nationalists, if anything. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 20:09, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

I would agree for the purposes of Wikipedia, this article shouldn't be in any Irish republicanism categories, although on a non-Wikipedia note, those taking an in-depth look at the protests in East Wall should be aware of Malachy Steenson. Steenson, as reported by the Irish republican political magazine the Phoenix, has been in a half dozen Irish republican parties in his lifetime (Republican Sinn Féin, 32 County Sovereignty movement, Workers' Party) and still calls himself a Socialist Republican. Steenson is an active leader in the East Wall Protests, and the Phoenix believes he's angling to turn his leadership into a local council seat in 2024. Also, the man who threatened to burn hotel in Kill is a dissent Republican. CeltBrowne (talk) 02:15, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Steven O'Rourke is also a republican but nobody else mentioned has anything to do with Irish republicanism, though the WikiProject does say it includes Irish nationalism and there are a lot of Irish ultranationalists at the protests and a lot of Irish flags at the protests, sometimes even just flags, as pointless as that is. (see [1]) They seem to be quite interrelated in that way. – Mullafacation {◌͜◌ talk} 17:20, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Irish nationalism is very much not the same thing as the right-wing nationalism being demonstrated at these protests - notwithstanding the presence of Irish tricolours. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:04, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Irish nationalism is a broad church. It includes right-wing nationalism and ultranationalism. Stara Marusya (talk) 20:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

"Ireland is full" subsection

I'm reviewing the "Ireland is full" subsection and I'm beginning to have concerns about it; primarily that as a subsection it veers into being WP:Original Research and WP:Synthesis as well as being written in more of an essay style not inline with the Wikipedia format. Like, it's essentially written as a rebuttal to the #irelandIsFull hashtag rather than a summary/account of things.

It also uses several sources that I would generally avoid: The Irish Mirror, the Sunday World and Trinity News. The Mirror and the Sunday World are tabloids and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources generally classes tabloids as unreliable. British tabloids, for example, are actually generally banned on Wikipedia as sources. Trinity News is the work of Trinity students rather than professional journalists and I would worry that it would be classed as an unreliable source for that reason.

I would suggest that it needs to go. CeltBrowne (talk) 01:21, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I'd have no objection to that. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:36, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

While I'd have nothing against Trinity News, which I think is more reliable than the tabloids, I also think taking out the section, for now, is best. Some coverage of this issue is needed, but in a different style, and more briefly. I still have concerns about this article as a whole, the whole piece has a touch of SYNTH, but again, the topic does need coverage, so let's just keep trying to improve it. SeoR (talk) 14:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Scope

Why does this article only begin in 2022? There have been many such protests in recent years, or do they have their own article? I don't see it mentioned in this one. Stara Marusya (talk) 20:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

When I was working on §Background I included some old protests but I didn't find any movement that is as big as it is now. If there is, you can add them in or suggest which ones, but at the moment it only covers protests from November 2022. – Mullafacation {◌͜◌ talk} 21:38, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Oughterard was far bigger than anything going on the past while, they had crowds of thousands. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/thousands-protest-over-plan-to-locate-direct-provision-centre-in-oughterard-38543466.html https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/large-crowd-continues-protest-over-direct-provision-centre-in-oughterard-1.4034095 Stara Marusya (talk) 21:50, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I thought of it as a stand-alone event but it has all the same reporting on far-right hijacking too so it seems to be connected with the rest of the protests. If there is evidence that protests continued through to 2021 then I'd support changing the title, but otherwise I personally think that it should be kept as a separate but contributing event. – Mullafacation {◌͜◌ talk} 17:32, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

There was a rash of them around 2018-2020 in Connacht. But I see where you're coming from, it looks like a big gap between Achill in January 2020 and East Wall in November 2022. I don't know of any in between, so either we make one big article or two separate ones. Stara Marusya (talk) 17:48, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I would support inclusion in the one article, here. No point or gain in splitting it in two. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:36, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

I've found six protests/arsons from 2018-20. They are Carrickmacross, Moville, Roosky, Ballinamore, Oughterard, and Achill. Anyone know of any others? Stara Marusya (talk) 16:08, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

While there were some protests between 2018 and 2020, I don't really see them as an interconnected phenomenon in the same way the protests listed in this article are. If I recall correctly, the Oughterard situation was something prompted/manufactured by Noel Grealish, and Achill was something that followed shortly thereafter, but neither led to a wider movement. They were isolated incidents.

The protests listed in the article are interconnected because typical it was the same areas repeatedly protesting, the same people protesting, the groups began to coordinate with each other, etc. That sort of organisation was not found between 2018 and 2020.

If the 2018 to 2020 incidents were included, which again I don't really support, they could be mentioned in the background section.

Finally, although no one can say for certain, it seems like the protests peaked in January/February, and ever since the Solitary rally on 18 February, anti-immigrant protests have tapered off. Once the momentum for something subsides, it's hard to regain it.

If that is the case, some kind of conclusion should be placed in the article. CeltBrowne (talk) 17:42, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

As there seems to be a consensus developing against inclusion here, I've started 2018–2020 Irish anti-immigration protests. Stara Marusya (talk) 08:51, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that was the way to go either. The article you've just created immediately jumps out as a work of WP:Synthesis as WP:Original Research, with the very first sentence being copypasted from this one but reworked to say 2018, even though the source doesn't support that. The 2018 to 2020 protests were not even about temporary refugee shelters, they were against direct provision centres. Another sentence noting the presence of the far-right in those 2018 to 2020 again is sourced to 2022 and refers to the 2022 to 2023 protests. It's a complete muddling of events.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to nominate it for deletion. I think you really jumped the gun rushing to create a new article; there was very little discussion here before you did it and the feedback you got indicated you shouldn't go ahead, but you still went ahead regardless. Both Mullafacation and I said we really didn't think it was a connected phenomenon in 2018 to 2020, while Bastun was more open to it, but directly said only mention it here, not in a separate article. CeltBrowne (talk) 09:07, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

A lot to unpack there. Bastun wasn't open to a new article, quite the opposite, they wanted to expand this one. Mullafaction didn't say they didn't think there was a connection, quite the opposite, they pointed out how the protests were similar. Mullafaction's issue was with the time gap. I don't know how transitional shelters are different from direct provision ones, but you can fill me in if you like. The 2022 reference was included because it discusses the similarities between the 2018-20 protests and the new ones. The main reason I started the article was because a second person (you) spoke of their reluctance to add this material here. Stara Marusya (talk) 09:25, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I said/meant that Bastun was open to the idea that 2018 to 2020 were an connected series of events, but I did make clear that Bastun thought that should only be mentioned in this article.

When I was giving my own take, perhaps I should have been clearer; I meant that I didn't support the creation of a new article because I don't think all the protests in 2018 to 2020 are interconnected. However, if people were going to push on ahead (as later happened), I said I thought the information should go in the background section of this article, not a new one.

I don't know how transitional shelters are different from direct provision ones

Direct provision is for those seeking long-term residence in Ireland, and those the centres themselves operate at the same location for many years or decades.

Temporary refugee shelters are for those seeking short-term residence in Ireland such as Ukrainians fleeing the war, and only hold people for short periods of time, and don't exist at the same location long term.

The 2022 reference was included because it discusses the similarities between the 2018-20 protests and the new ones

One person opines that 2022 to 2023 could be considered a continuation of events from 2018 to 2020, which is somewhat valid, but that source cannot be used to support everything stated in the first sentence of the new article.

The source you used to say there were far-right figures involved in 2018 to 2020, but the source cited doesn't outright state that. The language is confusing, it says:

In recent weeks, local community groups across Ireland have expressed concerns over their area’s capacity to house a sudden influx of hundreds of people and the lack of consultation or dialogue from the State. But these groups aren’t calling them ‘invaders’. That’s the preferred description of far-right figures, seeking to present an extreme worldview of dangerous foreigners, traitorous politicians and helpless locals. Often these figures and groups try to insert themselves, online and offline, into local communities. They exploit locals’ concerns and further their own agenda. This has been evident in protests against direct provision centres for years. Oughterard, Rooskey, Killarney.

I'm not sure what "this has been evident" means here. Does it mean the language the far-right uses was evident in 2018 to 2020, or does it mean far-right figures were evident in 2018 to 2020?

From my own recollection, I don't think there was considered to be a large far-right element attached to this stuff in 2018 to 2020. Rather, those protests were encouraged by the likes of Noel Grealish TD and Michael Collins TD.

From what I recall, Oughterard, Achill and Ballinamore happened roughly at the same time in late 2019, and I suppose one could make the case they were interconnected (Although I'd be hesitant). Again, I think if you wanted to include that, it should go in this article as a precursor rather than a separate article. CeltBrowne (talk) 10:10, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

(Only answering the second-last point for now) My recollection of those earlier protests was the prominent presence of one or two far-right grifters (one of whom had an article here that was subsequently deleted). I'd have to go digging, but my impression was the politicians in question were, to some extent, jumping on what they perceived to be bandwagons. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

References

Interconnectedness

I don't see as much evidence of interconnectedness in the text as I had expected, which surprised me, given the discussion above. What am I missing? Is it fleshed out in certain references? Stara Marusya (talk) 13:25, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

No longer ongoing?

A month ago the Gardai stated they believed the protests had "peaked" [1] and would begin dropping off. That prediction seems to have been accurate, as I can't see any recent news about protests. It might soon be time to transition the article into using the past tense. CeltBrowne (talk) 11:16, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Quite probably - though weren't there a couple of protests at the roundabout near Dublin Airport fairly recently? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:24, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

That incident seems to be the most recent reported incident and occurred on 2 April. There doesn't seem to be anything more recent than that. If another week or two goes by, I'd suggest that the protests at that point have petered out, given they were occurring much more frequently previously. CeltBrowne (talk) 12:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

yes, they failed to get any momentum from normal people. For example the "grassroots" protest in Carrickmacross turned out to be a National Party publicity stunt that backfired completely as there was only the same 20 or so local people every week after that & no one would touch them with a barge pole. Same with Ardee, once the Irish Freedom Party stopped busing in their followers no one else showed up and they petered out after a few weeks WorldTravleerAndPhotoTaker (talk) 07:00, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Ok, given events of the past few days, we were premature moving to the past tense. We will need to expand with the recent attacks, arson, arrest, etc. Maybe mention the Revolutionary Housing League, too? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 20:13, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Don't forget the fights in Lismore by immigrants and the odd man who was in court for attempting to run over the protestors in a car..

Ah sure that's only a bit of fun tho? 78.152.210.91 (talk) 20:07, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

"2018–2020 Irish anti-immigration protests" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect 2018–2020 Irish anti-immigration protests has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 25 § 2018–2020 Irish anti-immigration protests until a consensus is reached. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 15:23, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 14 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) RodRabelo7 (talk) 04:57, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

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Irish anti-immigration protests (2022–present) → Irish anti-refugee protests (2022–present) – The protests and riots have all been connected by a theme of opposition to various refugees (whether that be asylum seekers, International Protection Applicants etc.) I think therefore a much more accurate title for this article would refer to refugees rather than immigrants. The various parties involved have not expressed opposition or mounted protests against European immigrants from the EU, for example, or against people moving from England. It is solely directed against refugees. Wikiejd2 (talk) 16:27, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - The majority of the leaders of these various groups have made it clear the oppose "mass" migration to Ireland and advocate for greatly increased difficulty in the ability to immigrate to Ireland. See Derek Blighe or Malachy Steenson as examples. CeltBrowne (talk) 18:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The majority of sources use "anti-immigration protests" (Irish Independent (IE), Time Magazine (US), The Times (UK), The Journal (IE), etc). It is Wikipedia norm to reflect the sources and WP:COMMONNAME. Guliolopez (talk) 13:31, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: It feels like it's oversimplifying a multifaceted issue. Waqar💬 15:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: I don't think I've heard them described as anti-refugee protests in the media, so I think the current name will be easier for people to find and identify. David Malone (talk) 19:10, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.