Talk:Islamic modernism

Notable sources

"Islamic considerations blogspot" is not a notable source. It's got to go. --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The writing in this article is not good. In some cases it is not clear what the author is getting at. In some cases modernist (re)interpretation can find support in the text, such as the requirement of four witnesses to adultery, which may have the effect of voiding the hadd in practice, or the permission of four wives conditioned on the ability of the husband to treat them fairly, which is argued as denied by another passage. --BoogaLouie (talk) 00:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

BAD article

Ok I arrived at this article with 2 main goals: 1. To understand WHAT Islamic Modernism is. 2. To find out a little about it in terms of what are the main ideas that it supports. Two questions, that's it: What is it? and What doeas it say? I came to this article and I failed to get an answer for any of those questions. Thus, it's a poorly written article that fails to provide any encyclopedic knowledge to anyone who's NOT ALREADY FAMILIAR with the subject. Now, that we've come to this issue: if I WERE already familiar with the subject, I doubt I'd have checked the Wikipedia page on it. The main reason I had for checking this page out was because I knew NOTHING about Islamic Modernism. Unfortunately I continue to know nothing about it. Bad article! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru (talk • contribs) 18:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Can't disagree with you, Omulurimaru. To me it reads like a - fairly interesting - personal essay on the meaning of the Modernist movement in Western art, especially poetry. Even as such, it fails to usefully discuss Modernism in music or architecture, dance or film. It also has a highly dubious assertion that - for some unspecified scholars - Modernism includes Post-Modernism.

But its main problem is that it treats "Islamic modernism" - its putative subject - as merely a derivative imitation of Western Modernism. To do so is to draw a very long bow indeed! And not a little insulting to Islam's native reformers and modernisers. The history of Islam is full of Muslims who, for reasons intrinsic to Islam itself, felt a need to modernise - that is, to reinterpret and revivify - the practices and institutions that had become traditional in various Muslim societies due to their pre-existing conservatism and respect for past achievements. There is, in fact, a long tradition of modernisation within Islam itself! In this sense at least, Islamic modernism predates Western modernism by several centuries. yoyo (talk) 05:22, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Given the essay-like nature and lack of citations which characterize much of this article, I would suggest that merging this article into Islam and modernity might be a way to salvage the usable content. Dialectric (talk) 08:24, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:49, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Salafism

Deleted additions by User:Ejaz92. Islamic Modernism is NOT the same as Salafism. What is "Salafism Modernism"? Here is a quote from a source given:

... Salafi modernism, represented by the Muslim Brotherhood and allied groups such as Pakistan's Jamaat-i Islam ... http://www.ibnarabisociety.org/articles/cornellpracticalsufism.html

MB and JI are NOT Islamic Modernist. They are Islamic Revivalist. --BoogaLouie (talk) 00:20, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Ejaz has reverted back again with edit summary: "Please consider the references"

Ejaz do you have any reply to my comment above? --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

[Pasted from Ejaz talk page (reply to two questions:

"Are you claiming that "Salafi modernism [groups] ... the Muslim Brotherhood and allied groups such as Pakistan's Jamaat-i Islam" (here) are Islamic modernist not revivalist?

If so on what grounds?")]

As the problem is related to the naming.Let me clear it:

1).I also have the same opinion that Islamic modernism is not salafism neither I say it is actually salafi movement.As you can see in the article salafi movement, the creators and the editors of the article tried to explain that Mohammad Abduh, Rashid Rida, who are actually the Islamic modernist, were the notable individuals of the salafi movement.But I too along with you contradict with them.

What I explain in this edit is:

(a)Some people named the islamic modernism of Mohammad Abduh and Rashid Rida as Salafi Movement...When I wrote " It is also called by some as Salafi movement" : I gave references http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e2072

and http://www.jamestown.org/programs/tm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=528&

The last one can be found in the article Salafi Movement too.In google you may find an article of britanica name salafi movement where they talked about the movement of md. abduh and R.rida.

(b)I said the islamic modernism influenced the salafism.It supports your openion.I it is not salafism itself nor it is salafi movement ::When I wrote " while others say it only influenced the latter" I also added a section in the article named "Influence on Salafism" . I provided its refrences from the site of Dr.Yasir Qadi, a world renowned american scholar who is an ex-salafi and from an article written by Shaykh Nuh keller.

http://muslimmatters.org/2014/04/22/on-salafi-islam-dr-yasir-qadhi/5/

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/salafi.htm

(2)On your question,"Are you claiming that "Salafi modernism [groups] ... the Muslim Brotherhood and ...........are Islamic modernist no revivalist, I would say , yes, this name (i.e., Salafi modernism), you may delete. Ejaz92 (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Not sure exactly what he's saying unfortunately --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:27, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Its clear.What could not u understand? Ejaz92 (talk) 19:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

[my reply pasted:]

Yes, it is generally agreed that Mohammad Abduh and Rashid Rida can be claimed as pioneers by both the as Salafi Movement and the Islamic modernist movement.

But nowhere among the sources you've given (or anywhere else) can I find anyone saying that the Islamic Modernism and Salafi Modernism are the same. Nowhere can I find anyone saying that Muslim Brotherhood or Jama'at-e Islami are "Islamic Modernist". --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:37, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

(Have edited the article again. deleted part of what Ejaz wrote and rewritten most of it here.) --BoogaLouie (talk) 23:46, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

More dispute with Ejaz

Ejaz made a series of edits Jan 3 & 5 2015 that are, not following Wikipedia format (lede is too long) and not totally accurate (e.g. " has also been called Salafi Movement by some" but the sources given (http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e2072 and http://www.jamestown.org/programs/tm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=528& http://onislam.net/english/shariah/hadith/hadith-studies/441636.html don't exactly say that )

I think now you understood the sources given what exactly say? Ejaz92 (talk) 19:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC) [Pasted from Ejaz talk page]

Ok If its correct that salafi modernism is a term for muslim brotherhood and jamat, then I am going to delete the name salafi modernism from the article.

Now is it ok? --Ejaz92 (talk) 04:51, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I still think you should let a native English speaker/writer go over the righting for grammar, agreement, consistency etc.

For example, It [Islamic modernism] has also been called salafi movement

is not grammatical.

I suggest: It has also been called Salafism by some while others say Islamic Modernism only influenced Salafism. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:07, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok you can change but what is the restriction in using salafi movement instead of salafism? You may change but use salafi movement.As salafism is not a particular movement rather its a trend or it is a mixture of whabism,salafism and many other movement.But salafi movement was a movement which was inspired by the figures like md.abduh. But in case,if you say it inspired salafi movement it indirectly means it inspired salafism. Ejaz92 (talk) 04:29, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

"what is the restriction in using salafi movement instead of salafism"?This is an English language encyclopedia.

Do you have any source saying there is a difference between Salafism and salafi movement? In English we consider them the same. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

After all you accepted my request in your last edit.Ejaz92 (talk) 19:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

More bad edits

Ejaz why have you deleted the History of Islamic Modernism section?

Why have you deleted sourced material? (It was the first of several Islamic movements – including secularism, Islamism and Salafism – that emerged in the middle of the 19th century in reaction to the rapid changes of the time, especially the perceived onslaught of Western Civilization and colonialism on the Muslim world.)

Why have you changed "is" to "was" in Islamic Modernism is a movement ..."? Are you saying there are no more Islamic modernists? --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Ejaz you are making a mess of the Islamic Modernism article. and you have not replied to my questions. I will have to revert your edits. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

[I didn't revert it but found a source that pretty much said the "salafiyya movement" is often known in the West as `Islamic modernism,`" here and rewrote the text here --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:29, 10 January 2015 (UTC)]

Thanks for helping me in improving the article.now its a real source knowledge.Thanks friend keep your critical behavior continue. its helpful.Ejaz92 (talk) 19:00, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Umm ... Thanks. Have tried to cleanup your edits. Sure, my critical behavior will continue. --BoogaLouie (talk) 01:23, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Question from Ejaz

[pasted from BoogaLouie talk page]

What does it mean " (The connection between the "Salafi Movement" of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh and modernism is noted by some, [4] [5] [6] while others say Islamic Modernism only influenced Salafism. "?

Do you mean to say " The connection between the "Salafi Movement" of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh and "Salafism" is noted by some, [4] [5] [6] while others say Islamic Modernism only influenced Salafism.?

Did you write Modernism in place of Salafism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ejaz92 (talk • contribs) 13:45, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

In English people assume "Salafi Movement" and Salafism are the same. I have never seen an English language source that distinguished between "Salafi Movement" and Salafism. Have you found one? Or how about an arabic or urdu source that says this?

I changed [Islamic Modernism] "has also been called Salafi Movement [4] [5] [6] while others say Islamic Modernism only influenced Salafism", to

"The connection between the `Salafi Movement` of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh and modernism is noted by some, [4] [5] [6] while others say Islamic Modernism only influenced Salafism"

because the sources ([4] [5] [6]) don't really say Islamic Modernism "has also been called Salafi Movement".

They suggest it. They talk about how modernist the original salafi movement of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani was. But they don't call the Islamic Modernist movement the Salafi Movement. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:29, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

My friend, Ref.4,5&6 is even named as "salafi movement" and shows Md abduh as the founder of the movement. That means the "islamic modernism" and " salafi movement " are same.Founders called it "salafi movement" (even ref:4,5,&6) while other gave it the name "islamic modernism" Ejaz92 (talk) 06:23, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Doing it again

Ejaz please do not put this in! You do not have sources saying anyone calls Islamic Modernism the Salafi Movement. --BoogaLouie (talk) 02:53, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

More back and forth

[pasted from BoogaLouie talk page]

You are right " In English people assume Salafi Movement and Salafism are the same".

When I wrote " Islamic Modernism "has also been called Salafi Movement" it does not meant I am equating Islamic modernism with cotemporary Salafism or Salafi Movement rather I am just talking about the naming of this particular movement (islamic modernism) led by jamal ud din, md. abduh and rashid rida.You also said the same we you quoted " The early Islamic Modernists (al-Afghani and Muhammad Abdu) used the term "salafiyya" to refer to their attempt at renovation of Islamic thought, [3] and this "salafiyya movement" is often known in the West as `Islamic modernism,`".

Now come to my objection:

you wrote " The connection between the `Salafi Movement` of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh and modernism is noted by some, [4] [5] [6] ".

You tried to show that salafi movement was led by afghani and abduh while islamic modernism was a different thing.The two had only some connections.

Where is it mentioned in the ref: 4,5, and 6 that the `Salafi Movement` of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh and modernism was not the same thing?Infact the islamic modernism was founded by afghani and abduh and they themselves gave their it the name salafi movement.

Do you think a person(Md abduh) can lead two difderent movements at the same time? No it was a single movement but with the two name.

You can take the reference from your own edit :

The early Islamic Modernists (al-Afghani and Muhammad Abdu) used the term "salafiyya" to refer to their attempt at renovation of Islamic thought, [3] and this "salafiyya movement" is often known in the West as `Islamic modernism,`" although it is very different from what is currently called Salafism , which generally signifies "ideologies such as wahhabism". [3] So if you dont think that ref. 4,5,6 support my argument then use your own reference ref..no.3.

A good solution is to delete this sentence.Start the article with : " Islamic Modernismalso called as salafi movement " ...............

use the reference no.3. plus if you are agree use ref. no.4,5& 6. these references also talk about the the same same movement (Islamic movement) of afgani, Abduh and rashid rida but used the name of salafi movement.As it says :" In terms of their respective formation, Wahhabism and Salafism were quite distinct.Wahhabism was a pared-down Islam that rejected modern influences, while Salafism sought to reconcile Islam with modernism." (ref:5) Ejaz92 (talk) 11:06, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

You tried to show that salafi movement was led by afghani and abduh while islamic modernism was a different thing.

You are right. I misspoke (misedited) This has got to change.

A good solution is to delete this sentence.Start the article with : " Islamic Modernismalso called as salafi movement "

No can do. In contemporary English usage saying Islamic Modernism is a synonym for salafi movement, just confuses people. I will make a change and then we can argue about that and maybe do a Request for Comment --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:38, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

[more pasting]

I did not say that salafi movement (led by afghani and abduh) and islamic modernism was a different thing.You tried to say that.I said these two were the same movement. But the sect thar is called salafism in present time is not the salafi movement of afghani and abduh.You can see it in " influence on salafism" sectio. Ejaz92 (talk) 18:54, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

See if you like this: (The origins of contemporary Salafism in the the modernist "Salafi Movement" of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh and is noted by some, while others say Islamic Modernism only influenced contemporary Salafism.)

I accept your solution.Its the same what I opine.

Ejaz92 (talk) 06:25, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Islamic Modernists

Islamic modernism, when duscussed in this article, meant a movement led by activists and islamic scholars like Aghani, Abduh and Rida.This movement was/is monolithic in nature.

As " Jamal ad-Din al-Afghani , Abduh, and their later disciples such as Muhammad Rashid Rida (d.1354/1935) and, to a lesser extent, Mohammed al-Ghazali (d. 1410/1989) espoused some of the key Wahhabi ideals, particularly the endeavor to “return” to the Islamic understanding of the first Muslim generations (as-salaf) by reopening the doors of juristic deduction ( ijtihad) that they saw as closed." (from the article).

This trend is inspired by wahhabi movement in some aspect.

That means it has nothing to do with secularists modernists, Naturists etc.

So when naming the islamic modernists we shoud restrict it to the people who espouse(d) the islamic modernism in the same manner as the founder did.

Modernist like Syyed ahmed khan, a supporter of british colony in India(Contrary of abduh and rida), secularists like Farag Fawda,Mahmud Tarzi and many other had a dufferent trend of modernism. They are modernist in a broader sense.They subscribe to the trend called as " islamic midernity" or "islam and modernity"So their names should be placed in the article Islam and modernity not here.

Ejaz92 (talk) 06:47, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Dates?

" Its most prominent intellectual founder, Muhammad Abduh (d. 1323/1905),..."

There's an uncertainty of 1128 years in the date of his death? Seriously? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 19:49, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Rashid Rida's Modernism as Islamism

I noticed that the page describes Rashid Rida as having modernistic leanings in the form of Salafism or Islamism, despite the fact that he took a somewhat different path from his mentor Muhammad Abduh's Mu'tazilite or rationalist beliefs. I wanted to open a discussion about this characterization to add more details in the article contributing to this perception.

While Rashid Rida is often associated with the Salafi movement, which is generally considered conservative, there are aspects of his work and thinking that seem to exhibit modernistic tendencies. For example, he was a proponent of Islamic reform, advocating for a reinterpretation of Islamic texts in light of modern challenges. It's essential to recognize that he may have been influenced by various modernistic ideas circulating in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Additionally, Rida's interactions with Western thought and his interest in issues such as constitutionalism and governance reform could have contributed to the perception of modernistic leanings. I think there is a lack of description and sources to support this claim in the article and I can potentially contribute to the section with sources that discuss the issue. The following source is a good place to look into and start the conversation from: Dallal, A. (2000). APPROPRIATING THE PAST: TWENTIETH-CENTURY RECONSTRUCTION OF PRE-MODERN ISLAMIC THOUGHT. Islamic Law and Society, 7(3), 325-358. Rizwan.ul.isl (talk) 12:30, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: MIT 398 Intercultural International Communication

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 August 2023 and 5 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Rizwan.ul.isl (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Rizwan.ul.isl (talk) 11:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)