Talk:Jack Thompson (activist)/Archive 8

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Hmmm. Must remember to get a juris doctor. Suing people who speak truth to power is EFFECTIVE! — WCityMike ^{(T | C)} 17:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Reputable Source Criteria

Please provide specific criteria for defining a "Reputable Mainstream Source".216.89.171.253 17:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Note Wikipedia:Verifiability and its sub-pages for more information on sources and such. --Keyne 17:35, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Great stuff! Anything that's critical has been removed. All references to the Janet Reno campaign has been removed, incl. his "media campaign" to out Janet Reno as a lesgian. Way to go!

Reaction

What the hell happened here. This article removed all the references to all of Jack Thompson's freakouts. Where is all the references to him calling Janet Reno a lesbian over and over again. where is the section on the Modest Proposal he made where he had fantasies about killing video game creators. Come on bring back the old article, or at least show how much of a nutcase this guy is in this one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.210.230.223 (talk • contribs)

• There are obvious counter questions to that... Where are the sources for him calling Janet Reno a lesbian over and over again? Where are the sources for him having fantasies about killing video game creators? And where are the sources for him being a nutcase? (valid psychiatrist reports accepted ;) When it comes down to it, "he's a nutcase" is an opinion. And Wikipedia doesn't do opinion. -- sannse (talk) 15:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• He has called Reno a lesbian many times in public. I have seen a video where Jack Thompson keeps refering the Reno as a lesbian over and over again. That was basically his campaign platform when he ran against her. I don't know where the video is. Comeon, someone find this video so we can have proof. Or better yet, Jack Thompson just come on over here and call her a lesbian again and save us the trouble. As for his "A modest proposal" where he completely jumped the shark as video game critic, is Gamespot.com a good enough source? http://www.gamespot.com/news/6135940.html

And I know that Wikipedia cannot show opinion. But by keeping out all of the insane stuff Jack Thompson has done on the internet, it makes this article Pro Jack Thompson. And Don't tell me that we need a New York Times Source. NYT has better things to do than to report on some retard with a computer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.210.230.223 (talk • contribs)

• Obviously, Miami and Dade County newspapers are the proper sources for such content. Until someone looks through these papers from 1988, we won't have proper sources for such content. Anyone in the U.S. has access to these newspapers through their local library's interlibrary loan program. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 15:27

Sorry, this is just pampering, you have removed all references to his Livejournal rants on GamePolitics, are you saying that a news site about computer games in which Mr Thompson posts is not relevent? You've just proven Mr Thompson's point for him. Those who make the loudest tantrums win every time. I defended Wiki's need to review what was here, but you've dissapointed me massively. Shame on you. Flipside72 15:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

You know i was previously the only one arguging that the last verison of the article was an injustice to Jack Thompson, BUT THIS ONE IS BLOODY ABSURD, It has removed any negative aspect at all of him, of which he has plenty documented cases, every opponet he has come into contact with thinks he is insane. So, a person can say whatever they want and as long as it is not reported in a major major publication it is not valid for wikipedia? 203.112.2.212 15:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

What about all his newsmax.com article which are verifable and written by him(newsmax has removed the most absurd ones, but they are still acessiable via archive.org) where he goes into detail about janet reno being a closet lesbian that has molested young girls in custody, thus this caused being blackmailed by the mafia What about Reason's : http://reason.com/re/041999.shtml. What about all of his verifiable insane press release and quotes on the quote page, what about everyone disowning him, this is simply unacceptable. 203.112.2.212 15:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Here is all your Janet Reno Sources and information: http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/4/7/70516 for thoese pages that newsmax.com has removed(the most offensive ones) please use archive.org which has archived all of the articles. 203.112.2.212 15:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

HERE IS MY FAVORITE CHOICE QUOTE(http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/4/25/93805 also http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/5/1/162149 is good):

"... was the testimony of Eliana, Frank's wife, who "flipped" and became a witness against her husband for Janet Reno's prosecution. How did Janet Reno accomplish that crucial flip? Persons ・who are available to any congressional committee wanting to hold hearings about the Elian raid ・came forward and stated that Reno put Eliana, an attractive and shapely 19-year-old woman, into solitary confinement in a Dade County Jail cell, stripped naked because she was on a "suicide watch," where Reno "consulted" with her as many as thirty times, without disclosing to Eliana's criminal defense lawyer at the time, Michael Van Zanft, the fact that the meetings were occurring.

"Reno's having spoken to a criminal defendant, during the pendency of the criminal proceedings, without disclosing such contacts to opposing counsel, is a breach of the Code of Ethics of the highest magnitude for a lawyer.

"What more, witnesses can swear that when Eliana's testimony was taken in the criminal proceeding, Janet Reno, the prosecutor of Eliana who was a criminal defendant at the time, sat next to Eliana and held Eliana's hand during the deposition. This behavior of Reno, unethical, bizarre, and possibly perverse, was intended to assure the testimony Reno needed to convict Frank Fuster. ... "

--203.112.2.212 15:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• The only article on newsmax that contains the words reno, lesbian, thompson is an article by him in which he cites Queer Nation calling Reno a lesbian. All of the content you're looking for should be in Dade County newspapers from 1988, to which anyone in the US has access. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 15:40

All the sub articles on Jack Thompson still exist: James v. Meow Media, Strickland v. Sony, Jack Thompson and video game players, A Modest Video Game Proposal, Jack Thompson and the Jacob Robida murders, Flowers for Jack. I would hate to see them get the same treatment as Jack's main article, though. I honestly don't see what's wrong with using Game Politics as a source, which would fall under the LiveJournal thing up there. It isn't simply just guy's random blog; it's a news site run by a freelance journalist who covers the high-profile cases of gaming in the media, culture, and politics that just happens to use LiveJournal as a medium (Something the site owner says will change in the future). The site itself has been referenced by many other video game sites, which makes it quite notable. And seeing how this is an article on Jack Thompson, Game Politics would be quite pertinent since he is the one personally making comments on the site, and Game Politics happens to be where he posted many of his press releases. You can't find a much more direct or relevant source on the man then the words coming straight from his keyboard. - MarphyBlack 15:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

What type of authority does this person have? All I see on his page is self=promotion. He is not an admin as far as I know and there's nothing linking him directly to Wikipedia. Just someone on a power-trip. Until someone from Wikipedia acknowledges so, everything will go back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.231.253.100 (talk • contribs)

To imply that Live Journal members are liars, whish is what is being implied when stating that LiveJournal is NOT an acceptable source, is to clearly show a bias in favor of John Bruce Thompson. The decision of what is a good source or a bad source is also a form of bias as it implies that only "accepted" sources by John Bruce is what will be allowed. Even if it's emails or press releases from John Bruce to members or owners of Game Politics (which is what we're talking about in regards to Live Journal, don't beat around the bush), disregarding the emails/press releases because of the receiver is clear bias. By showing such bias, whether forced to be biased or not, you (Wikipedia) show that Wikipedia's material can be influenced and may contain incomplete and false information. While some may feel that such an attitude on my part is exaggered, I feel that if a site that claims to be the premier site for information can have one article contain incomplete information through intent, then other articles may be just as compromised. Rest assured that while others may not feel the same way, I will be sharing my feelings with others seeking resources for information and suggesting that they look elsewhere for complete and factual resourses of information. I have always sought resources of Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But the Truth, and it appears Wikipedia is no longer one of those resources. Andrew Rhodes 15:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Some live journal members are liars though. I can only take the word of the editor on gamepolitics that all the postings supposedly by Jack are by him. It's not as verifiable as an interview, or televised appearance. That's what makes it difficult. While it may be possible to prove that in a court, it isn't here, and we should only stick to what we can prove. I know that at least one Live Journal member is a liar because Jack Thompson posts there, but we can't use something open to other liars to prove that Jack is a liar. It doesn't stand up.--Plagiarize 17:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I ask that this article be nominated to AfD as now it is more of a Vanity piece, and completely leaves out verifiable facts. Unless you include such facts as his loss of Pro Hac VIce, His investigations by the FL Bar, etc the piece is not NPOV. And before I am accused of sock puppetry this is Toll and my ip has been recorded on this talk page before it was cleared.---Tollwutig 17:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC) 15:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The pro hac vice incident is mentioned - perhaps you should actually read the article before complaining about it? Feel free to look in the archives of Florida newspapers, ca. 1987-91 I believe, to find reporting about his dealings with the Florida Bar. I didn't have time to get into those and wanted to get a decent, relatively thorough article in place so we weren't left with a stub forever. --Michael Snow 16:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• It is certainly easier to destroy than to create, but writing Wikipedia articles is supposed to be more difficult than writing blog entries or posts on message boards. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 15:59
  • But rewriting an article from one POV to another is just as biased, and restricting author's available resources about a person which shows them in a possible negative light is also rather biased. I agree sourcing livejournal isn't encyclopedic, but not allowing online sourcing unless they meet certain "qualifications" is very biased against a new form of media, which is odd since Wikipedia is a part of that media.----Tollwutig 17:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC) (UTC)
    • Plenty of reliable sources are out there, but people are being lazy about finding and citing them. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 16:21
      • Instead of bitching about it, why dont you help us to find them? Im still not sure why you think GP isnt relible, just because it uses livejournal as a backend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IanC (talk • contribs)
        • Just because I have involved myself as an administrator doesn't mean I am going to involve myself as a contributor. I have plenty of other projects to keep me busy. Feel free to do some actual research. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 16:26
          • What better sources exist than the words of J.B. Thompson himself?Keyne 16:50, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
          • The problem is the verification that it was what Thompson actually said. I agree that the livejournal comments from Thompson shouldn't be added, but I don't agree that we have to only get verification from mainstream media. None of them will cover Thompson's wilder antics--Tollwutig 17:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
          • No offense, Brian, but your statement here is unspeakably arrogant. You get to completely trash the article, totally kowtow to Thompson, but your attitude is you have "better things to do" than fix it. Except that I'm sure if we fix it, you'll merely trash it again.

Unfortunately the sources people cited before were deemed of lesser value. Also no clear definition other than "no livejournal" was given as to what determines a lesser source from a good one, just 2 examples. Admittedly one of them is the "New York Post", but does a small town's Mainstream newspaper like the "Baxter Bulletin" constitute a lesser source, or does it qualify as a valued one. It does serve a large portion of AR. If admins are going to get involved with this article and state they will revert unless it meets thier criteria, then they need to be VERY specific about that criteria.----Tollwutig 17:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you missed it, but an item sourced to The Baxter Bulletin was added in half an hour before you posted. --Michael Snow 17:50, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually no as I am the one who originally posted the link. I just went back and resigned my comment after I created an account to avoid confusion when I go home this evening. Read below where I commented on the resigning.--Tollwutig 17:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. Maybe next time you could just replace your IP with your username, instead of changing the timestamp. You can sign just your name without the timestamp by using three tildes instead of four. --Michael Snow 18:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I am still learning wiki editing :)--Tollwutig 18:19, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I see someone put this all back, however, I know that it's going to get reverted and to be honest I don't have a problem with that. What we need to have is a none POV article that talks the positives and negatives, which we didn't have before someone reverted it to the pre Thompson intervention and which we didn't have in the 'reputable sources' article. If we feel we KNOW something for a fact (the florida BAR investigation for example) then it's our duty to find a concrete source for it. It's not just about wikipedia protecting themselves it's about us protecting ourselves. Thompson is unlikely to sue, however, if he threatens to sue baselessly (IE if the entry is NPOV, and credibly sourced) then that's further grounds for complaint to the Florida BAR. What I do want to see though is something that highlights inconsistancies in what he says and what he does, albeit in an NPOV fashion. For example the article Michael put up quoted him as saying 'All I want to do is get games rated' or similar, and then provided examples of games he'd tried to ban outright. Something on the lines of 'It is unclear how far Mr Thompson's ambitions go, as despite having publically stated he only wants games rated by an independant body, and those ratings to be legislated, he has tried to get several titles out right banned, and become involved in game related cases where the people involved were all adults.' Something along those lines with the required references would be both NPOV and a lot more balanced than either what Michael put up or what it was replaced with. --Plagiarize 17:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Here is a good source for the "Janet Reno Lesbian Note" antics: [1]. It cites this as a source, which I believe I have properly put in as a reference: Chuck Philips, The ‘Batman’ who Took on Rap; Obscenity: Lawyer Jack Thompson put his Practice on Hold to Concentrate on Driving 2 Live Crew out of Business In Southern Florida, He is Loved and Loathed, LOS ANGELES TIMES, June 18, 1990, at F1.

I also take a bit of offense at Gamepolitics not being citeable. Wikipedia is, technically speaking, just as verifyable as Gamepolitics. In addition, don't they count as a first hand witness? KiTA 19:00, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Notable events

A link to his A Modest Video Game Proposal should be included. It is a notable event. He was trying to bait the industry to gain attention, and was called on it.

I think also that his Man in Miami stuff is also significant, as it documents his criticisms of Janet Reno, to whom he lost an election 10 years previously. Jabrwock 15:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, what about his website, www.theflabar.org? IanC 15:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Well good work....

Well then, congrats Wikipedia to bowing to Jack Thompson and i cant wait for him to "celebrate" his win over you. IanC 15:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, Since I've tried to make a few edits and they've all been reverted, it seems like the only valid sources are thoese which present Jack in a good light, good work wiki! 203.112.2.212 15:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Gamepolitics.com should be a reliable source as it sources other mainstream media in its articles. gamepolitics.livejournal.com is the blog portion of this. The mainsite just links to it.--[--Tollwutig 17:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[User:70.10.218.200|70.10.218.200]] 16:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, GPs webmaster just uses Livejournal for its commenting system. Also, does anyone think Jack will be truely happy with the new article? IanC 16:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

If he's not going to be truly happy, then what is he going to celebrate? --Michael Snow 16:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Good point, and good dancing aound the bit about Gamepolitics....

I still don't understand how a site on which Mr Thompson posted his own news releases can be considered a non-viable source. The behaviour here violates everything the Wiki is supposed to represent. Flipside72 16:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

This portion of JBT's online ventures might be worthy of some clarification. I suspect it probably violates Wikipedia:Verifiability, but that JBT chose to "release" press releases on GP might make those worthwhile entrants into the wiki page.

Could we get some further clarification since he did technically issue "press releases" of sorts, which should account for something possibly "verifiable." --Keyne 17:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I added it all back!

The guy that did this was not an admin. Just someone with an attitude and on a power trip. Had no right to do this.

Please dont. Most of the stuff you added back is taking care of by the "See Also" section anyway. IanC 16:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Ian, I know you are a frequent contributor here and I respect that. But these changes by Mr. Snow were done out of concensus, just because he felt like it. The way I see it, I'm just as entitled as he is to do that.

Serious edition is needed in the article, but the current version is not a version people can have consensus on, as it cuts out a large majority of what other people believe should be in the article. Someone should get to it and edit this piece NPOV, either pro-John Bruce Thompson or pro-Gamers. Silver Derstin.

I agree with Snow, he's trying to make sure we're following the guidelines set out by the admins when they restored the article. Nothing without credible references. If you keep this up, the article might get semi-protected, which means no more anonymous edits. Jabrwock 17:00, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The previous article was backed up by credible references. Just because Mr. Snow decided not to look into it any further doesn't mean they shouldn't be there. And that's the problem with this whole article. I'll be the first to admit that it does need some "pruning", but it's not about what the pro-gamers or the pro-Jack Thompson people want. It's about facts! And these are the facts about this man wether it inconveniences some or not. Why did he unilaterally decided that no LiveJournal links? It has no explanation other than it was his whim. Jack Thompson himselfs posts his "press releases" there. How come what he himself posts there is not credible?

By previous article, are you referring to the entire entry? Someone keeps putting back the entire "pre-complaint" text, which does nothing to help. Look at the way the article is written right now. We can't use blog comments in something like that. Only if the news site quotes the press releases should we reference the article. Jabrwock 17:11, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Jabrwock - Have you looked at such "blog comments"? I know that for someone who is not familiar with the guy and his MO it would seem weird, but that's where he posts his alleged "press releases". It has been confirmed via IP, e-mail and telephone by the manager of the GamePolitics site that it is Jack Thompson. So how come it's not reliable enough to be on his Wikipedia article? The same goes for just about all the "pre-complain" text. If anything I think that the article should be brought down again and be decided out of consensus what to put in it. But not what Mr. Snow decideds on a power-trip. Isn't this about facts? Or convenience?

A good chunk of the "pre-complain" text is referenced from Jack's own posts in GP comments. And I would not consider those as reliable as other sources. If a gaming news site quotes those press releases, I would argue that they become valid sources at that point. Snow doesn't seem to agree. Can an admin comment on whether GameSpot & others constitute reliable sources? Jabrwock 17:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is bizarely enough, an encyclopedia, and what encyclopedias don't aim to do is to print the truth. They aren't tasked with proving a known point, just collated information about something gathered from reputable sources. There's little reputable about Jack Thompson's own word, and unless we have someone reputable confirming that he said such and such a thing, there's little we can do. The owner of gamepolitics may have all that evidence, but as far as you or I know it's just his word, and one person saying something isn't strong enough to make the cut here. There are plenty of places for activism against Jack Thompson and fighting the pro gaming fight, but this isn't the place by wikipedia's own definitions of what it is. I think the article should represent Jack truthfully, and I think that'll speak for itself, but everything has to be up to snuff or theres little point in doing it because if it isn't well sourced Jack can just point to Wikipedia and go 'everyone knows wikipedia is an unreliable resource'. If we help make it reliable, that argument vanishes.--Plagiarize 17:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Arcording to Plagiarize (not an admin as far as i can tell, so take this with a pinch of salt) "Gamespot aren't on the same level as New York Times because they don't have anything like the same fact checking resources." Which does sound like BS to me, but there you go. IanC 17:45, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin no, but I don't think it's BS to suggest that a website primarily interested in game reviews doesn't have as big a fact checking service as a news paper. Gamespot have a news section, but that is not their primary focus. If you read what Wikipedia says about reputable sources, you'll see that how reputable a source is, is directly related to their fact checking abilities. So, Livejournal < Gamespot < New York Times. I personally think Gamespot are reputable enough, however, I do see some value in avoiding gaming sources since it's pretty apparent to me that the game media has an evident bias against JT.--Plagiarize 18:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Using that logic, there are few groups who would be allowed to make edits to John Bruce's article. My comment isn't meant to be mean spirited. But the truth is, if you're implying that anyone who John Bruce is against cannot make fair edits to his article, then the article would be fairly empty, to John Bruce's liking I'm sure. There is a fairly decent sized list of group of individuals that John Bruce has deemed inferior. Indeed, during this issue with Wikipedia, he brought up his bigotry against atheists. One has to wonder if someone from the Eagle's Forum wanted to edit in his article, even though they are, from the viewpoints of some individuals, a "lesser source", would the be allowed to in whatever fashion they wanted to since they are on John Bruce's "friendly" list? Andrew Rhodes 20:40, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd argue just as strongly that people who are 'friendly' to him don't make good sources either... but the key things isn't whether or not you are pro or anti JT (and I personally can't stand the man because of personal insults he directed at me in a private e-mail) but whether or not you can write something that isn't biased against or towards him. If we genuinely believe that his actions show him to be the person we think he is, then we should be able to paint that picture of him, using nothing but unbiased facts. I'm not against the use of gaming sites as references, just against over use of them. It'd be like an article on George Bush that mostly cited either Republican or Democratic sources. It'd be too skewed to be factual. One that sources *both* would be a much more balanced piece and it would let the reader make up their own mind.--Plagiarize 20:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Research Links Here

http://reason.com/re/041999.shtml <- detail about him and Janet Reno http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/4/7/70516 <- A Link to all his newsmax articles(use archive.org for thoese that have been removed by the host) http://www.theflabar.org <- his personal anti-Florida Bar site

According to this link http://lesbianstudies.com/oldsite/reno.htm which is certainly NOT strong enough for use here, the february 99 issue of Media Bypass (supposedly a print magazine) quotes Thompson as saying "I knew she was a lesbian and that troubled me as a Christian." If anyone could get a hold of the print magazine in question (which I'm unfamiliar with myself) then could this potentially be a good source on the whole Janet Reno thing?

http://www.baxterbulletin.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060208/NEWS01/602080339/1002 Is this an acceptable source? The Baxter bulletin is a News Paper, although not a very large one, based out of Arkansas. or is it not notable enough.--70.10.218.200 16:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The Baxter Bulletin looked okay to me, I added in a sentence based on that news report. --Michael Snow 16:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051019-5458.html I'm not certain if ArsTechnica counts as a "reputable mainstream source", but this news posting has a number of links in it to other of Jack's antics that ought to be included in the new article. If this is to be an encyclopedic entry, then it ought to give a full picture of the man. Similarly, Gamespot News has a good aricle here http://www.gamespot.com/news/6135979.html regarding the Penny-Arcade hoopla following "A Modest Game Proposal" 216.89.171.253 16:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Since it's being decided that Gamepolitics isn't a reputable source, could someone suggest an alternate way of quoting his press releases and open letters? They aren't the sort of things that get reported on in major newspapers but they're certainly public record and verifiable. Can we just say 'Jack Thompson press release' and if so, given that we know Jack doesn't do anything with his releases than spam them out all over the place, how many links do we need to provide to back up the contents of such a thing? If Jack Thompson publically compares someone to Hitler in an open letter, we can certainly say he did so without fear of retribution. So what's the tactic?--Plagiarize 17:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

BBC News have a nice little spot on him here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3104892.stm There's a couple of interesting snippets. It relates to the Tennessee shootings but has a bit of detail on earlier cases he's been involved in. There's also a rather strange quote.

"Nobody is saying that a video game by itself can turn someone into a mass killer," he said. "But the law is that if you make a product that is linked in a chain of events, and but for that link the final tragedy would not have occurred, you are liable. You don't have to have little angels turned into killers."

INAL but wouldn't that make a ridiculous amount of people liable? Is that really the requirement for liability? Surely there has to be a degree of negligence or similar. Anyways it's a little besides the point because proving that the game was a crucial link is nearly impossible. It's not enough to prove it was an influence... which probably explains why he's not had much luck at this suing videogame companies.--Plagiarize 18:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Do we have anyone knowledgable enough in the field of law to confirm or deny the information contained in this quote from Mr. Thompson? It seems to me that this would be untrue, as you would have to prove causation. By the logic presented in this quote, I could say that using a toilet was the cause of both Adolph Hitler's mass-murders and the DC Sniper's shootings, since they had very little in common other than both used toilets. This is an extreme, silly example, but hey... 216.89.171.253 19:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Some possible information on the JBT/Janet Reno clash (incl. information on the question JBT offered Reno): Doing the Right Thing, by Paul Anderson, p.100 & 153 Sep 9, 1988. --Keyne 18:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok maybe a few links coming from me as I go through GP's history and pull out the articles Dennis cites for his own:

• http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/03/24_ap_moreweise/ Thompson on the Red Lake Shootings, although it's kinda wrong since MPR didn't know enough about what Thompson was talking about to research and go HUH? to him.
• Thompson's legal brief on Kobe Bryan http://www.courts.state.co.us/exec/media/eagle/11-03/req_no_emc.pdf
• Interview where Thompson apologizes to Saddam Hussein

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141144

• Thompson on Schiavo http://www.societyfortruthandjustice.com/new_page_2.htm (will try to find a copy elsewhere.)

Tollwutig

• I'm pretty sure I have the copy of EGM that has that Thompson interview in it somewhere. Given that it's a print magazine, I think that makes it an even better reference. I'm at work right now but if I can dig it up, I'll cite the issue number and the page. If you weren't aware 1up.com is the website side of a number of print gaming magazines.--Plagiarize 19:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Then as such I'd say it would qualify as a reputable source. Tollwutig 19:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Well lets hope my memory isn't cheating me. I won't be home for a couple of hours, but if anyone else has the issue in question, please chime in. It was certainly in EGM, there's a banner across the top of the article to that effect.--Plagiarize 19:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Globe and Mail have a two page interview with him here on their website. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060130.gtthompsonJan30/BNStory/Technology/AtPlay/?pageRequested=1 I'm not sure if there's much here to work on, but again he's basically sticking to his public message of 'i just want games that are marked innappropriate for anyone under 17 to not be sold to anyone under 17' but it might be worth a read. it's very general and shows the 'public' image very well. he even states that gamers have been 'far too kind!' when asked how he feels about the criticism he receives from them. It shouldn't be at all difficult to show the hypocrisy without being biased because he regularly does hypocritical and contradictory things.

This is from a UK news paper on the Manhunt case. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=312008&in_page_id=1770 there's quite a few quotes from Jack, and it's one of the best examples of Jack's hypocrisy, since he's trying to get this game banned when it's already rated by an independant body and has a legally enforced rating in the country where it was made. It has Jack calling it a murder simulator and saying that people are being killed because of games in America on an almost daily basis.--Plagiarize 19:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

More Links I keep saying Thompson has verbal diarherra of the mouth, here's more links:

• Judge Moore on Alabama Trial and Thompson's 60 Min Interviews http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3536313&nav=0RdEbamt
• Thompson Interview on CNN regarding Alabama Trial http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/21/ng.01.html
• Gamesindustry.biz Article on NIMF letter to Thompson http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12259 although you may not consider it reputable
• 1up on Thompson's purchase of Take-two stock http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3146569

Tollwutig

Gamepolitics have pdfs of what they claim to be hard copies of Dave Walsh's NIMF headed letter to Batman, could they be considered reliable in that instance (On GPs word that they have hard copies)?

http://www.gamepolitics.com/images/NIMF-1.pdf http://www.gamepolitics.com/images/NIMF-2.pdf

(The archive with the links to above) http://gamepolitics.livejournal.com/109057.html

(The text of above {with the claim of hard copy} and Batmans retort) http://gamepolitics.livejournal.com/2005/10/14/

I'm trying to find a good source for the whole 'certified sane' thing here, and I used the newslibrary link to search for 'lawyer certified sane'. The first hit I got was with regards to Janet Reno, but the summary doesn't mention anything about JT. It's from the Washington Times, October 29 2001 and the article is called 'Reno Redux in Florida'. Anyone with access to news records able to check that one out? Also, I couldn't find that issue of EGM sadly.--Plagiarize 15:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Reputable Sources

I am very much unconvinced that quoting his own posts on gamepolitics.com is not a reputable source. If he writes something himself, why can we not report on it? It makes no sense. SanderJK 17:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

It seems to support the notion that Thumper Thompson is not reputable. This thing is a complete joke.

Ok, we need to define what a "reputable source" is, or give a list of what sites are NOT reputable sources. I referenced GameSpot, GamePolitics, and Advanced Media News, all on-line news sites, and my stuff was reverted. Jabrwock 17:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

GamePolitics is a livejournal, so it doesnt count (apprently), not sure whats bad about GS and Advanced Media though. IanC 17:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

GamePolitics basically broke Hot Coffee. How are they not reputable? Mtvcdm 20:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

This is especially frustrating as his approach to mainstream media is very much different then his behaviour on the internet, which for many shows his true self, much more egocentric, rude, biased and stubborn. If a man writes emails threatening to sue to many different people on the web (including wikipedia, penny-arcade, ctrl-alt-del, and gamepolitics.com, some of the most famous pages on the web) and these emails by him are public (posted by himself, or posted on very reputable sources who earned the internet communities trust (Penny-arcade.com has 2 MILLION visitors each update, how does that compare to local papers? ) how is that notable or charactaristic. The current site feels censored, and it hurts my heart that wikipedia took a dive. SanderJK 17:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Jabrwock we need some clarity as to what is acceptable and what is not. I also STRONGLY DISAGREE if this is a case where online news sources cannot be used. If you cannot use online news sources which report online only, then why would anyone want to cite Wikipedia, the online only Encyclopedia, seems like a contrary viewpoint. Also Gamepolitics.com in and of itself is not a livejournal, it just uses livejournal as its blog feature. I will agree that using Thompsons posts on Gamepolitics should not be allowed as those cannot be verified beyond a shadow of a doubt to be Thompson himself.----Tollwutig 17:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)70.10.218.200 17:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC) Btw I went and created an account as it looks like I am going to have to help Jabr do some research on this, and I don't want to be accused of Sock Puppetry when I post from my home computer. LJ users will recognize my name--Tollwutig 17:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello Tollwutig :) IanC 17:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of truth, JBT's "wild antics" on messageboards does not conform to Wikipedia:Verifiability, which is the measure for articles' verifiability. --Keyne 17:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Keyne. I actually went and had a look about what wikipedia itself defines reputable sources to be and for the lazy ones, it says the following:

At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites, weblogs (blogs), bulletin boards, and Usenet posts, which are not acceptable as sources. Rare exceptions may be when a well-known professional person or acknowledged expert in a relevant field has set up a personal website using his or her real name. Even then, we should proceed with caution, because the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to any independent form of fact-checking.

Note that Wikipedia itself does not currently meet the reliability guidelines; however, nothing in this guideline is meant to contravene the associated guideline: Wikipedia:Build the web. Wikilink freely.

Obviously Gamespot and such are not any of those things, but a website Jack Thompson himself had set up would be. Gamespot aren't on the same level as New York Times because they don't have anything like the same fact checking resources. Remember all we have to do is show a reliable source said something. Whether or not it's true isn't for us to worry about. If a reliable source calls Jack 'certifiably insane' we can say that. If we know something for a fact, but no reliable source says it, then we can't.--Plagiarize 17:35, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

So one shouldn't cite Wikipedia as a source in a Wikipedia article?--Tollwutig 17:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• thats covered by WP:SELF (in a way) IanC 17:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• If the content that is cited comes from a verifiable source, then one should simply cite the original source, rather than the article that cited it. The reality, however, is that much of Wikipedia's content is unsourced, even good factual content. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 17:48

And doesn't that mean that one wouldn't be able to cite any gaming news information off sites like Gamespot? - 17:50 March 2006

• Be careful not to lump them all together, as there are probably exceptions. For the most part, however, yes. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 17:52

So they arent allowed because? (GS isnt a personal webiste, or a blog, or a BB)

The problem is that Thompson never posted his modest proposal to his own website, he just spammed off copies to all the gaming news sites. He was interviewed about it repeatedly by gaming podcasts. How many sources do we need before we can agree that Thompson wrote it? Jabrwock 17:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe a link to the actual audio recording of Thompson talking about it? I mean audio of the person talking about is should be verifiable should it not?--Tollwutig 17:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Video/audio of him (such as in a podcast) should be acceptable, but only to source article content that is actually explicitly covered in the video/audio. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 17:59
• for heaven's sake. Thompson makes most of his more controversial claims and outright lies in comment spam to GamePolitics.com, Joystiq.com and other gaming sites. It IS his pattern. He then goes on CNBC and acts like a sane person again. By Wikipedia's standards there's no way we can cite Thompson's Hyde persona, but all of his comments made when he's in his Jekyll persona are ok. Talk about skewed. Whenever did Wikipedia come a source for just one sided facts?

It should also be noted that Gamepolitics.com had vertified that it was indeed Thompson's IP address when he made those posts. 17:56, 14 March 2006

• IP's aren't that reliable and I agree why they don't want to use LJ comments. There is not 3rd party checking of the facts. Just a single person stating that yes this was Thompson.--Tollwutig 18:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

In the search for reputable sources, in addition to the policy on verifiability which goes into detail about what types of sources can be used, the policy on bios of living people might be helpful as a guideline. These aren't arbitrary things that Michael Snow or an admin decided; its policy. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 18:19, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

So for his opinions on Reno can we at least say, he does not in fact like her? You can site http://files.tyndale.com/thpdata/FirstChapters/1-4143-0442-0.pdf as a source. No better verifiability than the horse's mouth.--Tollwutig 18:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Reputable source for Flower For Jack http://www.miaminewtimes.com/Issues/2006-02-09/news/metro2.html --Tollwutig 18:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Question for someone more familiar with the intracacies of the Wikipedia:V and subsequent sections: How are "press releases" handled? If an author of a "press release" considers a recipient verifiable/reputable enough to CC (or address directly), then could we not include such in an article? This is something to consider, as JBT has frequently copied a currently unverifiable source (GP) on releases sent to mainstream media, whom have subsequently picked up said pieces for print. I guess it's a question of whether or not the [PR] author's judgement is good enough for verifiability or an otherwise questionable source. --Keyne 18:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Keyne I think we can safely assume that unless a mainstream media outlet carried the press release as in the case of the Baxter Bulletin then Thompson's "press releases" aren't going to make it.--Tollwutig 18:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Gamespot is a major corporate website run by a major publishing company with an insane amount of hits, if it's not a valid source, then the baxter bullitien certianly isn't a valid source either.

There is a thread on the Penny Arcade forums that follows JBT's (I get weirded out using those letters for someone other than myself.) antics. It is not reputable for verification purposes, but perhaps it may assist someone in finding a reputable source. It has 10 pages to go before it is locked for size, and I expect it to survive only about two weeks past that point.The URL is: http://www.penny-arcade.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=210137&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Just Bri Thanks 06:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Criticism

There should at least be a criticism or controversy section on this article, as Jack is a notably infamous figure in the internet gaming community. 64.26.147.176 17:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

But Jack wouldn't want that, and we all know this site panders to him now. Sonic Hog

• Sonic Hog: That was a well thought out, well-written complaint. Now you just need to source it using reputable sources. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 17:50

OK I know you don't want to use Livejournal but parodies of Jack do exist and you can rely on http://gamepolitics.livejournal.com/2006/02/13/ as a source in that gamers aren't the most fond of jack. I am in the process of looking up other sites.--Tollwutig 18:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Well now I know that whenever I see something I don't like on wiki, I can just threaten to sue them and they'll quickly remove it without a fight.

Would someone be allowed to use the information archived on wiki before the edits for a smaller, stand-alone page, and then link it to Jack Thompson's wiki page? Maybe under a controversy or allegations heading? That way his livejournal postings would be shown, but without Wikipedia neccesarily supporting them one way or another.

It's sad, it appears that anything negative about Thompson is pretty much fated to be kept off of this page. Jack has three websites, he could make his own perfectly fine. However, it appears that wiki admins are willing to do it for him. So much for the whole truth and nothing but the truth from this place... I mean, by the standards here, Wiki isn't a source at all. Should I trust a site that says basically "We're not a good source, either, sorry"? Certainly not. I can say that whether or not I like Thompson (and personally, I don't care either way any more), I won't be directing people here anymore.

Florida bar investigations - review

The "Modest Proposal" was referenced by many gaming sites, as he sent a copy to all of them. No "mainstream" media picked up the story, because it was an obvious attempt just to garner media attention. Nevertheless, the challenge to the industry was made, and Thompson sparred with various groups over the wording, and whether various groups had satisfied the criteria, resulting in the Penny-Arcade incident. Thompson has been interviewed about it several times by gaming sites, where he insisted the offer is real. Even G4 TechTV's AOTS "The Feed" covered it (although their commentary on it was predictably biased).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In response to Thompson's behavior regarding Penny-Arcade's response to Thompson's "Modest Proposal", Penny Arcade forum members wrote, edited and sent letters and faxes to the Florida Bar Association detailing Thompson's activities and urging the review of his license to practice law. A representative of the Florida Bar Association acknowledged that they received several thousand complaints, and that the letters and faxes were forwarded to the disciplinary committee. The FBA later declined to investigate. Thompson sent his own letter to the FBA, reminding them that the last time he was investigated their insurance carrier had to pay him damages.

Following his dismissal from the Strickland vs. Sony case in Alabama, the Florida Bar once again opened an investigation into Thompson's behavior, following a referral by judicial officials in Alabama. Thompson responded with a letter threatening to contact the Bar's insurance carrier over "[t]he Bar's ongoing, recidivist, tortious conduct". At the time, the FBA had 3 investigations into complaints made about Thompson: one by law firm Blank Rome, one for the Alabama Bar Association, and one pertaining to Howard Stern.

As of 8 January 2006, Jack Thompson's website stopkill.com, dedicated to video game activism, has been closed down and redirected to a spam site.

Thompson's new website theflabar.org criticized the Florida Bar Association and others, citing ethical and moral disputes. The final note on the website asked anyone who views the page to help bring "overdue reform" to the Florida Bar Association because "bad lawyers are going untouched, and innocent lawyers are being skewered."

I still dont know why we cant have a link to his website, somewhere IanC 18:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I just added a link and small bit about his website, does it look ok? Will figure out the rest later IanC 18:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, i put it in the wrong place. Still, good its there, now to see about the rest of this IanC 18:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

No problem, and just for future reference, I'll mention the comment you rewrote about WHOIS confirming that it's his website, something I checked as well. --Michael Snow 18:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Technically, we can include his personal website as a primary source (see Reliable Sources). --Keyne 18:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Is Wired news a credible source?

Jack Thompson Versus Gamers

Details the fight between Penny-Arcade & Thompson over "A Modest Video Game Proposal".

The article does cite other sources, such as GamePolitics, GameSpot, Advanced Media News, and Penny-Arcade, but I would think that Wired would certainly be considered a "verifiable" source, since they are a large enough media organization to do some fact checking. Jabrwock 18:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd consider it reputable for these purposes, and it's a much more usable summary of that story. Thanks for pointing out the article. --Michael Snow 18:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll write up something about his battle with Penny-Arcade over "A Modest Proposal", using the Wired article as reference. Jabrwock 18:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I've already put it in. Note that Wired News still got the full name of the ESA wrong. --Michael Snow 19:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Just an FYI. You've properly surmised the wired.com article and as such, don't really have to worry about it, but i'm pretty sure that this is one of the contentious points with Jack. The details of his proposal, which wired.com don't list, stated that the game had to be commercially available. None of the ones made were. While we don't have to worry that wired.com didn't get their facts right technically, i think Jack's actions after the fact speak for themselves without misrepresenting his proposal. If I see a better summary from an equally reputable source, I'll let you know.--Plagiarize 20:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I can understand you do not want usenet, or blog posts, even if it's within reasonable doubt that they are made by the person himself, or if it's is one of the biggest blogs in the world (like penny-arcade.com's front page) because it is policy. However, "press releases" to gamespot.com, one of the biggest (i don't know how it relates to ign and gamespy) gaming websites for years and years and on end, can hardly be called uncredible. I can find nothing in the "reputable sources" that contradicts that. It is not hotly debated that this has happened, that he has stated these things (About Sims 2 promoting pedophelia, calling games "Murder Simulators" and worse) but just because the nongamer media does not pick up, it did not happen? The only solid criteria Reliable Sources states is:

"Evaluate the reliability of online sources just as you would print or other more traditional sources. Neither online nor print sources deserve an automatic assumption of reliability by virtue of the medium they are printed in. All reports must be evaluated according to the processes and people that created them."

Now gamespot.com is a professional company in the business of putting out game news (It's owned by CNET). On the subject of game related news, they have more knowledge, and thus more judgement, then just about all non specialist media. They are no doubt quite careful of their reputation, and i would trust them 100% if they say "He said this to us, or sent it to us". What exactly is the problem? SanderJK 19:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, GameSpot is owned by C|Net now, which owns: BNET | CNET.com | CNET Channel | CNET Download.com | CNET News.com | GameSpot | International Media | MP3.com | mySimon | Release 1.0 | Search.com | TechRepublic | TV.com | Webshots | ZDNet. They're rather a large corporation now, so I'd assume they've got the same range of credibility as Wired (in terms of verifiability anyway). Jabrwock 19:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Controversy

Why is my controversy section being removed repeatedly? I am citing verifyable sources, including sources that are already cited previously (noteably the Batman article in the LA Times).

The removed section follows:

Thompson has also been the subject of some controversy. In his unsuccessful election bid against Janet Reno, he accused her of being unfit to be the district attorney for Dade County. His reasons cited for Reno's being unfit were that she was a closet lesbian and alchoholic, and therefore could be blackmailed by the mafia. [2] In addition, during one public debate, Thompson passed Reno a note saying "I, Janet Reno, am a 1) Homosexual; 2) Bisexual; 3) Heterosexual." Reno was expected to check one box. Thompson then went on to say "If you don't respond by such a date, then you will be deemed to have checked one of the first two boxes." [3] Reno destroyed the paper, and a year later joked about the note, saying "Thompson has nothing to worry about. I am attracted to strong, brave, rational, and intelligent men." [4]

Is there something wrong with this section that I am not seeing, or are we showing a bias against critisizing Mr. Thompson due to his threat of a SLAPP suit against Wikipedia? KiTA 19:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

It would appear to a bystander that any sources other than direct quotation from Jack won't fly on the site anymore. I'm waiting for the page on R* to turn into a one-line blurb of "R* is the official cause of satanism in kids." Then you can cite to JT's page and everything will be happy, right?

I suspect it is a problem with credibility. There are quite a few links to alternate angles on the JBT/Reno questionaire in the research section. Perhaps some explanation of what is or is not verifiable among them would be more useful? They seem to have multiple sources from people that were working with JR or covering JR during the time period. --Keyne 19:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, as far as I can tell, people are just not willing to believe a lawyer in good standing could act like Mr. Thompson, and are trying to give him the benefit of the doubt by refusing to accept "Internet rumours". The problem with this is most of Mr. Thompson's discource takes place on the Internet -- outside of sound bites, he is not written up in the papers that much. At which point does a guy's blog saying "I called Jack Thompson, and he said this" or a post on a forum saying "I emailed Mr. Thompson, and he replied with this" become first hand observation rather than "Internet rumours?" The fact of the matter is Mr. Thompson is a very colorful personality, with very interesting styles of debate (focusing on Ad hominem attacks). These should go on the record, as they are important to note when he passes himself off as a "Video Game Violence Expert". KiTA 19:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

You're going to need cited sources for each event. No saying Thompson handed Reno the note without citing a reputable source. Also as Admins are watching the talk and article you may want to discuss things here before adding it. Or just mention it and let Snow add it.--Tollwutig

I have. His "handing a note" is of detailed public record. Specifically, I cited these sources: [5] [6] [7]. This should be enough. KiTA 19:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Better source: LA Times[[8]] article which is used by reference 1a and 1b already. I can't see how we can ignore it if we used it as a reference already. --Keyne 20:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I cited that above in my previous section. It was removed as unverifyable. I am not paying money to unlock the full version of the article just so I can cite it here, especially since it will simply be removed anyway, since as far as I can tell, Wikipedia is not allowing anyone to say anything bad about Mr. Thompson. Again, I will simply collect a more detailed, verifyable account of the controversy surrounded Mr. Thompson and his career, and then present it all at once, instead of creating it over the next few days with the help of others as I was intending. Maybe in a week the Wikipedia admins won't be in CYO mode. KiTA 20:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

There are a number of things wrong with it. One, it's not integrated into the structure of the article. Two, most of those links don't meet the level set forth above as being reputable mainstream sources, as required for the article. Three, I don't think you know what the Batman article says. Four, they aren't good sources because they're at best third-, fourth-, or fifth-hand regurgitations of what was actually reported. When you get that far out, even mainstream sources aren't really acceptable. If you want to discuss Thompson's campaign against Reno, you should focus on Florida newspapers from that period - I would recommend looking at the Miami Herald in particular. --Michael Snow 19:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. As I said further up, anyone in the U.S. can get the 1988 Dade County newspapers on microfilm through interlibrary loan. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 19:31

Note: at a price Tollwutig 19:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Price? I've been using interlibrary loan for the last couple years and haven't paid a cent. (Then again I've only been using it through my university). — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 20:31

That's all well and good but being in NC and not in a University, for me to go to a public library and get copies of the Miami Herald I would have to pay for it. So saying it's free for anyone is misleading.Tollwutig 23:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Or you can get it through NexisLexis - which is what I did. I also kept the Stanford monograph as it is a reputable, scholarly source. If anyone else has anything specific they need looked up in some archives, please let me know on my talk page. I work in a university library and have access to quite a few resources. There really does need to be some detail about Thompson's controversial statements and actions. To ignore them is untruthful and wrong. And to set an arbitrary standard for "scholarly sources" to prevent us from properly documenting this controversy is also wrong. --ElKevbo 19:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

NexisLexis? The monograph is a glowing paean to Reno, not a good source for neutral information about her opponents, and as to Thompson it's just regurgitating third- or fourth-hand reports. --Michael Snow 20:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you honestly saying NexisLexis is not credible? In addition, since the vent involved both Reno AND Thompson, a verifyable source for either one works just fine. KiTA 20:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Considering that NexisLexis doesn't exist, no, it's not credible. --Michael Snow 21:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

If you could get a copy of the Herald posting of this JBT v. Reno situation, that'd be lovely. The LA Times [[9]] version, while it is technically 3rd-hand, is a recountance of the debacle from the original Miami Herald article. It should be enough to work with for the moment, as both publications are quite reputable. --Keyne 20:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, even using such a method still locks out 90% of the information on Mr. Thompson, as most of Mr. Thompson's discourse is purely online, outside of his ranting, nearly incoherent press releases and letters to random people. By stating that Wikipedia cannot use online sources, well, not only is it hypocrytical but it also effectively allows Mr. Thompson to hide behind the same shield that he's hidden behind all along -- the print sources simply do not cover the fact that he attacks anyone who talks to him, invents statistics and data (such as his claims that the Sims 2 is a pedophile video game with detailed renderings of child porn), he attempts to create links to video games with every single violent attack and assult, et cetra. KiTA 20:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

What's ironic is that by hiding his press releases and caustic flame wars in on-line, unverifiable sources, he is effectively doing what he has threatened many for doing, namely hiding behind the anonymity of the web. Jabrwock 20:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

It is unreasonable to expect wikipedians to go dig up Miami Herald papers to edit a wiki. Other articles do not have a requirement to cite newspaper articles with every detail -- especially when most of the discource with Mr. Thompson occurs online. I have cited MANY sources about the "lesbian note" debate, moreso than required. I believe this bias towards Mr. Thompson is a result of Mr. Thompson using a threatened SLAPP suit against Wikipedia, nothing more. In addition it DOES fit the article. This is a article on Mr. Thompson, the man, and critiques of him are just as important, especially because Mr. Thompson thrives on his credibility as an "expert". Finally, while I have not read the Batman article myself, I have cited several second hand sources all repeating the same information. Have you read the Batman article, Mr. Snow? I believe at this point I shall simply compile my information and verifyable, online, sources about Mr. Thompson's antics, then in a week or two, once the panic has fallen off, I shall fix the article. KiTA 20:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've read the Batman article. I used the services of my local library. Do you think that waiting a week will justify using poor-quality sources? --Michael Snow 20:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

To state that the article in question is reputable enough to assert one set of claims and to decry it for reprinting another set of claims is contradictory--either the source is reputable or it is not. Given that it quotes a reputable source, I don't see how it could be rendered thusly unusable. --Keyne 20:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

There's no contradiction in observing a difference between first-hand reporting and third-hand regurgitation of information, even within the same article, even if the reporter is from a generally reputable paper. The critical thinking skills needed to make such distinctions are essential to producing neutral, well-referenced research. --Michael Snow 20:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

What part of Wikipedia:Verifiability are you basing the idea we need the original article and that an article by a reliable and reputable source quoting the original reliable and reputable article is somehow magically unreliable and disreputable off of? Please cite a direct quote from the policy on Wikipedia:V that supports this claim, or acknowledge that your view of what is verifiable is not the same as Wikipedia's and therefore has very little standing here.

It is not in the least unreasonable to expect people to look for 1st hand reputable accounts. Encyclopaedia Britannica has 50 levels of fact checking to make sure their content is right. Our fact checking involves linking to some_guy's post on some_message_board. Should we not be held to higher standards? Even if it means that the site doesn't expand at close to its current break-neck speed, so what? What's the rush? — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 20:38

What, exactly, would your problem be with using the Los Angeles Times as a source? Someone posted a link to this earlier [[10]] (I'm just copying their code, as I don't know how to link on Wikipedia), but it has not been specifically addressed why the Los Angeles Times is not a "reputable account."

At the very least this article should make clear that Jack Thomspon is indeed a VERY contreversial lawyer especially concerning gaming media. I am very unhappy with it's current state. I realize it links to other wiki pages detailing the better known contraversies, but if one finds a gamer referencing Jack thompson on the web, types it in on wikipedia, and reads this, he will have no idea why it is that this man is discussed so much, and a known figure. And thus this encyclopedia fails because it censors itself under the lightest of pressure. It's painful to see.

• Ironic, I was just reading about the new office policy note when this was vandalised. Small, small world. TKE 20:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Michael Snow - Revert this again and you're in violation of the 3RR (you're already in violation of the rule). The section needs to be cleaned up, not removed. You are not the sole arbitrator of what is scholarly and acceptable on Wikipedia. --ElKevbo 20:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Woah woah, lets just calm down for a second. I think both sides here might be taking it a bit too personaly, myself especially. Lets just agree that there something worth mentioning about controversy (I think both sides can agree on that?), and then we can start hammering out a better section. I have a friend on the Penny Arcade forums who is scouring LexisNexus for Jack Thompson related information in the mainstream press, I think he can find some verifyable sources that will make both sides happy. KiTA 21:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Could all the detractors just shut up for a minute?

This article, as it is now, is pretty much the same as it was before. Most of the same facts are still here, and all of the truth is still being told. The only difference now is that there are references and sources backing it all up. It's pretty damn impressive, to be honest. I understand that many of you don't like Jack Thompson. I don't blame you. I don't really like what he's done in the past, either. But, his actions are no reason to make a libelous page that defames him and is full of inaccuracies. We Wikipedians agreed by concensus that this project aims to be an accurate, complete compendium of knowledge, and so the full story must be told, even when the subject is not a very nice person. - CorbinSimpson 20:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The "full story" can never be told, due to Wikipedia:V limitations. --Keyne 20:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

True. Because a lot of Thompson's activities have been under the anonymity of the web. On TV and in print, he's a poster boy for reasonable parental concern over the effects of media influence. On-line he's the poster boy for the "Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory" Jabrwock 20:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that the truth is being told here, at least the full truth. The full truth about Jack Thompson includes his presence on the internet, his threats to sue many parties and individuals, his dealings with notable websites such as penny-arcade, wikipedia, ctrl-alt-del, and gamepolitics.com, his rather interesting vocabulary (Murder Simulators is his favorite these days), his rudeness to anyone who confesses to him to be a gamer, including the many derogatory terms, his downright lies about games (Like his Sims 2 statements). If i read the current article, i read about about a lawyer who is, perhaps a little sleazily, trying to profit from the current anti violent game sentiments in some parts of society by way of lawsuits against big players. However, that is hardly the completely picture, as on the internet (you may have heard of it) he is much more outspoken, fanatical, whimsical and controversial.

I am aware that wikipedia rules outlaw many of his statements as sources. However, if we can just agree that www.gamespot.com is a verifiable source (and i have heard 0 arguments why it isn't) Some weight to a significant portion of his notioriaty and fame can be given. SanderJK 20:35, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Having a double standard for citing references does not a fair article make. Not being able to use Thompson's own press releases does not give a fair view of the man. Thus I am going through all the history getting multiple references which independently verified the information to allow someone to correct the article. Yet this still is going to exclude some events or make them barely note worthy. All the spew about the Robida Murders are now one sentence since only 1 small newspaper even covered Thompson's assertions that games were related. The whole disparaging remarks about the Gamer Suicide which started his Livejournal Ban will vanish. His relating GTA:Vice City as a second Pearl Harbor from Japan, gone. His calling various industry officials Hitler, Nazis, etc, gone. His disparaging remarks to Gays, Jews, Muslims and anyone else, gone. His stating that murders in Russia were game related gone? Why Thompson isn't paid attention to by the mainstream press, and when he is he generally is on better behavior. Unfortunately none of the stuff was really liebelis because he actually made the statements, so now by using this newer standard, Thompson gets painted into a better picture, in other words, until a LOT of research is gone back through and reverified, and approved of by Admins, the article is just a reversal in POV. --Tollwutig 20:45, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I must say that in someways it's reassuring to know that many of his attempts to link various recent crimes with videogames haven't made it into the mainstream press, but I digress. Right now, his isn't as detailed as it was before, but it's getting there, and I think the tone of it is better. Give it some time and we'll have most of the facts back, in a NPOV fashion, with watertight referencing, and it's the watertight referencing that is ultimately going to make this a stronger article to cite in criticising Thompson, because it won't just be something you can throw out as biased and purely referenced. Even if we don't get everything back in, what makes the cut is going to be pretty much bulletproof, and I for one am happy with where this page is heading even though it has a ways to go yet.--Plagiarize 21:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Jack Thompson will continue to threaten lawsuits left and right until Wikipedia breaks down again and panders to his ego. Watertight referencing will mean nothing. He's never been one to let the facts stand in the way of his agenda. So, let's hope that everybody who's working on this keeps multiple copies... I foresee this page being blanked several times in the next couple years.

Watertight reference give him no grounds to sue anyone here or wikipedia. He can *threaten* to sue, but we can simple hand him the sources and say 'we were just citing these'. Then if he want's to go after the sources for posting the 'lies' that's up to him, but since we have no way of knowing they're lies, he can't hold us liable. Pun intended. Watertight sources mean that he can threaten all he want, but wikipedia will know that he can't do anything. If the newspapers offered a retraction to the stories that we don't know about, then he'll have to prove we did know about it. What you don't understand is that 'wikipedia' did not change this page. Michael Snow with the help of source finders did. He doesn't work for them, he's not an admin and i don't know of any of us that are. We want this article to be 'up to snuff'. We want it to meet wikipedia's own criteria so that it CAN'T be taken down.--Plagiarize 15:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Thompson and Reno

One of the "sources" claimed that Thompson called Reno a "closeted lesbian deranged by medication for Parkinson's disease". Considering that he ran against her in 1988, and her Parkinson's apparently wasn't public until 1995, I have great difficulty considering that credible without good evidence. The section was still just garbage like this along with third- or fourth-hand citations.

I understand that people want to have more about Thompson and Reno. I would like to know more too, like why he ran against her, what the major campaign issues were, who their supporters were, and what the results were (other than the fact Thompson lost). In chronological terms, it might even warrant being the first section, setting the stage for the 2 Live Crew stuff. By all means, go ahead and do the research in the Miami Herald and other local papers, but if you don't have good sources, it doesn't belong in the article. --Michael Snow 20:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Mike -you obviously have looked at any of the links I posted, Why I don't have an excat source of that quote, in his man in Miami newsmax.com stint(in 2000) he basically said all the details that make up that quote, so I wouldn't put it past him. http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/5/1/162149 <- Reno and Demnita http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/4/25/93805 <- he calls reno perverse and talks about a girl being highly attractive a sentence before he says Reno Would make her remove her clothing then sit with her and hold her hand.

I tend to agree. In fairness, there should be a bit more background to shore up his run against Reno. It's a matter of public record that the whole lesbian accusation debacle occured, however it seems to be preferred to get that information straight from the Miami Herald's archives rather than using the LA Times requote [[11]]. --Keyne 20:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Clearly there was something, but colorful stories like that have a way of changing and growing with the retelling, which is a particular reason to be wary of thirdhand accounts. Until we have an original, I think something that could be acceptable is to make a general mention that there were insinuations. --Michael Snow 20:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Well then, how about the following other subjects of controversy that I will be bringing up shortly?

1. His Anti-video game crusade (including seemingly creating facts out of thin air -- such as the claim that "Sims 2 is a Pedophile training Sim", and his attempts at getting the recent Gay Bar attack linked to Gaming -- and threatening the DA when he refused).
2. His use of Ad Hominem attacks, slander, and threats in emails (such as to the VGCats webmaster [12]). These usually usually follow the following format: "You're a gamer, Gamers are idiots, therefore I don't have to listen to you. Reply to this and I'll sue you into the ground."
3. His Modest Video Game Proposal -- a video game proposal parody of the legendary "A Modest Proposal" by Swift. [13]. He suggested an extremely violent video game, and promised to donate $10,000 to charity if someone created it.
4. His attacks on the webcomic Penny Arcade when, after the game was completed, Mr. Thompson refused to donate the money to charity. This would include him claiming that Penny Arcade employs their forum readers as "hired internet thugs", amongst other things.
5. His repeated attacks on the online Gamepolitics magazine/blog. He has been banned 10 times for trolling and harrassment, each time his identity was verified by the IP address. I would point out that not only was he bragging about taking out Wikipedia when his article was locked, he also sent the Gamepolitics editor a 1 line email saying that "You're Next".

Tell me, do I need to find a newspaper that somehow has covered Internet trollings by a washed up, possibly senile Miami laywer, or will the first hand accounts by the people he's attacked be enough? KiTA 20:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

YES you'll have to find a reputable source that covered it.Tollwutig 20:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

So Scott Ramsoomair posting 6 pages of emails that Jack sent him isn't reputable? KiTA 20:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Correct. See Wikipedia:V for some more details on why it isn't valid. --Keyne 21:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Again I agree with Keyne and I speak as one of the people who has been first hand insulted. We have no way of proving that those e-mail exchanges took place, and while I have zero reasons to doubt they did, wikipedia are pretty clear on where the burden of proof lies.--Plagiarize 21:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

This is nonsesne. So somehow, I have to find a newspaper -- but not an online news site, and not LexusNexus, one of the most credible sources for research in the world -- somewhere, that covered a nearly unknown lawyer in Florida harrassing people via email. How does *anything* get added to Wiki at this rate? Or is this one of those "technical rules" that no one follows but is quite useful when you need to beat someone over the head with? KiTA 21:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with using LexisNexis as a source. When Michael Snow said "NexisLexis" wasn't usable, he was just being pedantic - the correct name for the service is LexisNexis. Rhobite 21:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Not unless you can get Noterized copies in triplicate, and cite the sworn published testimony of his Dead Grandmother swearing the emails came from Thompson.Tollwutig 21:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

FYI 3 & 4 are already in the article, since they were covered by Wired Magazine. Jabrwock 20:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The first of three (current) paragraphs in the run against Janet Reno section seems to focus more on Neil Rogers than his run, or his opponent. Is there any way to more clearly tie that in, or possibly spin that off into something else (if it remains relevant)? Right now, it sounds more like pointless backstory that has little if any bearing on the section itself. --Keyne 19:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Allegedly?

Can't we at least say that he's "allegedly" unfit to serve as a lawyer? Jack Thompson's many allegations are listed in the article, and they have far less basis in fact.

There are hundreds of questionable, rude, immature and insulting statements attributed to Jack Thompson quoted across the entire internet, and ignoring even the hint of their existence is, quite frankly, an irresponsible denial of the reality out there. The volume of serious reports by career professionals could only be the result of a massive international conspiracy if not at least based in some fact. Let's use some occam's razor here.

Even if every single quote is false, then at least they constitute a massive cultural phenomenon that deserves mentioning.

On a related note, I think Thompson's threats against Amazon.com are well-documented enough to include, if someone collects the sources. - 24.42.67.191 20:43, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there should be some mention of such things, in a well-documented manner. Still, it's probably overkill to give a highly detailed blow-by-blow account of every online flame war he's ever involved himself in, which was the direction the old article seemed to be going in. It's not necessarily highly notable every single time he says something inflammatory online, though his general tendency to do such things might be collectively notable. *Dan T.* 20:50, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately the Amazon.com thing was all deleted by Amazon.com, so unless you can point to archival information from Amazon.com or get them to publically release the letter to a reputable news media and that source publishes it, there is no way to reference the in article.Tollwutig 20:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

We shouldn't really say 'allegedly' in that context. What we could do, is for example, cite an example of a case where someone else of reputation alleged that JT isn't fit to be a lawyer. We shouldn't be alleging things, but we're welcome to include references to other people doing just that, so long as they're verifiable. 'So and so has alleged on more than one occasion that JT isn't fit to practice law.' is fine as far as I can see. Now we just need to find good examples.--Plagiarize 20:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I concur - A few well chosen, well researched example should do nicely. I think we have a good start with the Jent Reno debacle. --ElKevbo 21:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson has far more than enough sourced quotes to create a "Feud with Gamepolitics.com" section, a "Open Letters" section (describing the various open letters he has released to the public, and more. His racist comments against Islam and Scottish people are both documented there, with valid news sources. - 24.42.67.191 21:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe this. The WP:Office has removed most of the facts that were relvant. The piece is no nothing more then a shell of what it once was. --Shaoken 20:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

A shell? It's completely switched POVs. I read the article now, and see that a guy doesn't like video games. Woo. This makes him completely un-noteworthy now, because thousands of other people don't like video games. So what's the point in even working on the article anymore?

Controversy (2)

I've added the controversy section back in, and it should stay in. It is relevant information. Why is Wikipedia removing so much information that has been reference and proved as fact? Are they afraid that Thompson will sue them for using the First Amendment? I swear we should add the section where he threatened Wikipedia. It speaks a lot about his character. --Shaoken 21:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Seeing as Reno's Parkinsons condition wasn't revealed until 1995, it's highly unlikely that Thompson said in 1988 that she had Parkinsons. The section doesn't cite any sources from 1988, even though those sources are widely available. Other than that, the section is far from neutral, inferring meanings behind statements and attaching overly exuberant verbs to actions. :) — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 21:15
• On top of that, the section doesn't actually discuss anything related to the two candidates' campaigns, choosing instead to focus on a specific incident normally of interest to tabloids. I doubt Britannica would commit their entire article on Thomas Jefferson to his relations with slaves. It just doesn't serve any intellectual purpose to the readers; rather, it provides gratification to the writers who choose to compose the article entirely of controversy. Sure, add in the controversy as the article becomes developed, but don't compose it entirely of controversy and leave it like that. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 21:18
  • It's relevant because the controversy is why Jack Thompson is a well-known figure. For better or worse, he has built his career and reputation on controversy, often self-created. It's relevant and it's important. It could always be better-written and -presented and it's obvious that many of us are striving to do that. Simply deleting the section, perhaps out of a misguided sense of fear, is the wrong course of action to take. --ElKevbo 21:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Until 1st hand reputable sources are added, the section shouldn't be included. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 21:32
  • I'm started to get annoyed with the amount of times I've posted this link: http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/4/25/93805 and of course Reason(why reason, an academic monthly major publication is not a valid sour ce is beyond me) http://www.reason.com/links/links091003.shtml http://reason.com/re/041999.shtml
    • I once shared an apartment with one of the Reason editors. I'm not sure I would call him an academic. He did have a lot of books, though. :) — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 21:36
  • Jack Thompson also said Reno was a lesbian, and she never was, so why must we assume he had a logical reason to claim she had a mental illness? Jack Thompson is the definition of a controversial figure. If Jefferson's most outstanding characteristic was, and was consistently proven to be, slave-love, it is noteworthy. This is like making a Michael Jackson article, and deliberately ommiting the widespread allegations of pedophilia. It's needlessly duplicitous. -- 24.42.67.191 21:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Except that the Michael Jackson article has other content besides the controversy. According to the replies on this talk page, Jack Thompson's article should be at least 100% controversy. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 21:39
      • I don't think anyone is saying that. The majority of what we are saying is that Mr. Thompson is parading about as an expert in the field of video games and the effects of violent video games on people. As such, it is important to note the controversy about his words and actions. You can note that he's a lawyer and likes to troll internet blogs, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. By refusing to allow these edits it's violating the Wikipedia:NPOV policy. KiTA 21:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Here's why the confusion arises. Thomspon ran against Reno in 88. He accused her of being a lesbian, and lost. 10 years later, he began writing for NewsMax as Man in Miami, and began accusing her of ties to the mafia, of having parkinsons, conflicts of interest during the Elian Gonzales affair, etc. So he didn't say she had parkinsons during his political run. Only that she was a closet lesbian. The disease/mafia allegations came a decade later. Jabrwock 21:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• This is why we must rely on 1st hand sources from 1988, rather than quoting 2006 sources. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 21:41
• Brian is right - the quote makes no sense, since Reno's Parkinson's wasn't public in 1988. It's not even a direct quote from Thompson - please carefully read the miaminewtimes article and see that there are no quote marks around "closeted lesbian deranged by medication for Parkinson's disease". Clearly Miami New Times got their facts wrong. This is why we need to stick to more reliable sources. Rhobite 23:40, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
  • More reliable than a published daily newspaper? KiTA 23:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

(Quick edit due to typo. Daily not monthly. I blame work.  :) KiTA 23:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The Miami New Times is a free alternative weekly, not a daily paper. In this situation it is obvious that they made a mistake. I looked through the Miami Herald's coverage of Thompson's state attorney run on microfilm tonight, and predictably there was no mention of Reno's Parkinson's disease. More on that later. Rhobite 02:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

While I find J.T., the article on him, and this Talk page, interesting, I'm not interested in getting into the discussion much. But I will say one thing: while I understand the possible temporal problems of saying that J.T. has accused Janet Reno of being a "closeted lesbian deranged by medication for Parkinson's disease" (and especially the problems that come with quotation marks—i.e., wondering whether the quotation marks mean that J.T.'s exact words are being quoted, or whether the quotation marks mean that the words are quoted from another source, a source that was paraphrasing J.T. but not quoting him exactly)—as I was saying, while I understand that problems do come with such a quote, the quote isn't inherently erroneous simply because of the temporal issue. When I say that Ronald Reagan "was a lifeguard, a radio announcer, a Hollywood actor, a California governor, and a U.S. president, who died in 2004", I'm not saying that all those different things (his lifeguarding; his radio announcing; his Hollywood acting; his governing California; his U.S. presidency; and his death, in 2004) happened at once. So, if we have a reputable source that says that J.T. called J.R. a closeted lesbian (whether his exact words or not)—at any point in the history of the universe—, and if we have a reputable source that says that J.T. said J.R. was deranged by Parkinson's medication (whether his exact words or not)—at any point in the history of the universe—, then, while it is not necessarily totally clear, it is also not inaccurate to say that he called her a "closeted lesbian deranged by medication for Parkinson's disease". While a reader may erroneously think that we mean that Ronald Reagan was swimming, making radio announcements, acting, and governing both California and all of the U.S., all while on his deathbed in 2004, we aren't automatically making a mistake by writing that he "was a lifeguard, a radio announcer, a Hollywood actor, a California governor, and a U.S. president, who died in 2004". If I, on Monday, say that J.T. lives in Florida, and I, on Tuesday, say that J.T. is a lawyer, it's not wholly wrong for you, on Wednesday, to say that I have said that J.T. is a lawyer who lives in Florida, even though my two statements that you're combining were made on different days. That's all. President Lethe 22:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

LexisNexis

Someone over at the penny arcade forums has access to lexisnexis and is currently queuering on Jack Thompson. Now these are full newspaper articles and thus quite lengthy, and i do not want to spam the talk page. Is there anyway to set up a subtalk/research page for them? And is there anyone that wants specific terms searched?

Talk:Jack Thompson (attorney)/research maybe? Jabrwock 21:40, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Anyone at a university, or probably public libraries, should have access to LexisNexis, although they probably have to go through a special link on their school library's site. I have access, and have found that LexisNexis doesn't have The Miami Herald before 1996. Any other newspapers in that county? — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 21:55

They uncovered this [14] link, referencing a 1988 article discussing the Lesbian Note thing. Unfortunately I believe that you need a username and password to visit that link. The relivant portion is quoted here:

"But ironically, her lack of image management has in some ways made her a more inviting target for the leakers and the fulminators. As hard as she has tried to avoid the gender issue, it often simply proves impossible to avoid. She has encountered adversaries who attempt to discredit her through the crudest and easiest of means, by challenging her heterosexuality even as they offer absolutely no evidence -- none -- beyond her unmarried status. It's something that unmarried female politicians commonly run up against. In Virginia, when then-Attorney General Mary Sue Terry was running for governor, her opponent, George Allen, suggested his status as a family man was one reason why he was better qualified; in an earlier race an opponent had attempted to challenge Terry with a crude reference to her "five ringless fingers." Similarly, an antagonist in Dade County, Jack Thompson, once approached Reno at a public forum, thrust a piece of paper in her direction, and demanded that she check a box saying whether she was heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual. Reno threw an arm around him, told him that she liked big, strong, handsome, kind, sensitive, intelligent men, and added, "I understand why you might be confused."

It was an adroit, sensitive parry of a label -- dyke! -- that many women are confronted with at some point or other, one that's so difficult to handle because, in responding, one runs the risk of protesting too much, or implying that there's something wrong with homosexuality. Moreover, it's a label that's impossible to disprove. "

Unfortunately this apparently does not fall under the Wikipedia standards for verification, since it is from the Washington Post, January 25, 1998, and not from 1988 nor from the Miami Herald. Pity. The search continues. KiTA 21:48, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Full articles shouldn't be posted on Wikipedia for copyright reasons. Feel free to email them to me, though. --Michael Snow 21:50, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Full citation: PUNCH LINES; What is it about Janet Reno that so fascinates and confounds and even terrifies America?, The Washington Post, January 25, 1998, Sunday, Final Edition, MAGAZINE; Pg. W06, 6973 words, Liza Mundy. Rhobite 21:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• I have found articles from 1991 and 1993 detailing these claims. I'll email them to you. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 21:57
  • Six articles from the St. Petersburg Times, from 1991 and 1993 were sent. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 22:03
    • Excellent, I don't have time to go through them all right now, but will do so soon. --Michael Snow 22:19, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• I do not have your email address, unfortunately. I placed them up here, however: [15]
  • You can email someone by going to Special:Emailuser/Michael Snow. You need to be a registered user with a verified email address to do this. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-03-14 22:03

Newspaper archives

I'm editing the L.A. Times references so they link to the official archive, although they only provide a short summary for free, you need to pay to get the full article. But I think it's useful to include it so that people can get the full original article if they so choose.

Also, anyone adding references from now on, PLEASE try and include a link to the article referenced, to an archive where the article can be purchased, or if it's a book, to where it can be purchased. I think it would be *really* handy for people trying to get background info. As was said before, we cannot provide copies of copyrighted material, but we *can* make it easier for people to be able to figure out where to purchase copies. Jabrwock 22:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Source Links

Can we gather all potential source links under this heading, to make it easier for the authors to find and verify them? Just trying to make things easier to find. Also if you feel this wouldn't be a reputable source mark it as such Tollwutig 23:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I think we should also solve the issue of whether GameSpot is a verifiable source or not. It's owned by a larger corporation, so I would think it wouldn't get automatic dismissal at least. Jabrwock 23:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree Jabrwock, and thats what I want to get down to here. If someone has a link post it in this section. Then we can gather a better consensus on each link. Here are quite a few from above. Also if you can note whether or not the source is now being used in the article itself. Tollwutig 23:35, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• http://www.gamespot.com/news/6135940.html
• http://reason.com/re/041999.shtml
• http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/4/7/70516
• http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/4/25/93805
• http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/5/1/162149
• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3104892.stm
• http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/03/24_ap_moreweise/ Thompson on the Red Lake Shootings
• Thompson's legal brief on Kobe Bryan http://www.courts.state.co.us/exec/media/eagle/11-03/req_no_emc.pdf
• Interview where Thompson apologizes to Saddam Hussein http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3141144
• Thompson on Schiavo http://www.societyfortruthandjustice.com/new_page_2.htm
• Thompson vs ESA http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/14/news_6129164.html
• Thompson vs Sims 2 http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_6129609.html
• Radio Interview with Thompson http://www.chatterboxgameshow.com/archives/Jack%20Thompson%20interview_07-31-2005.mp3 (This interview contains the famous "Sociopaths in edinborough scotland, sitting around in kilts sipping whiskey enfusing racial steotypes into our country" quote.)

I think the audio link should be used and referenced. Can't get more credible than audio of the person themselves.Tollwutig 01:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives OK this is a very good link as it can pull all the articles related to Thompson and give a summary(opening paragraph), the newspaper and the date. Unfortunately you have to pay to download the entire article, but it if you have access to the article to a different means it will reduce some research time in finding the relavent articles. To find Jack it's best to use the Phrase Jack Thompson Lawyer--Tollwutig 15:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

1up References

(Talk) I remember there was a video link of a speech Jack Thompson made off of 1up a while ago. Does anyone know the link. Also a link to the interview they did with him and the CBS interview would go a long was to restoring this article to a NPOV.

Also, can we at least say the gaming community accuses him of such and such?

BrendantheJedi 00:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

No, we may not say the gaming community accuses him of such and such. That's horribly POV. --Keyne 00:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Keyne: No, stating the objective truth that many in the gaming community have criticized Thompson is not POV. It is possible to discuss the points of view of certain groups from a NPOV perspective. Just look at, for example, the Wikipedia article on the controversial issue of Intelligent Design. It says "Eugenie Scott, along with Glenn Branch and other critics, has argued that many points raised by intelligent design proponents are arguments from ignorance." This is a NPOV treatment of a certain point of view.64.26.147.176 01:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that might work. It'd have to be very closely watched and such for out of line comments and whatnot. It might be better to avoid it, as plenty of other more relevant information is available. --Keyne 02:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

How about Buscaglia's documented comment that Thompson is pretty much the laughing stock of the Miami Legal scene? Its a 3rd party documented comment by a colleague. I will see if i can find the link.Tollwutig`

Thomas H. Buscaglia - I think that Jack Thompson is sort of like the Organ Grinder’s monkey without the Organ Grinder. He is just dancing around for attention and doesn’t seem to have much concern for whether what he is saying is true or not, he just wants people to listen to him. I think the really sad thing about him is that he has been pretty much a laughing stock in the Legal Community in South Florida for years since he was back attacking 2 Live Crew and anybody else that he doesn’t think meets his standards as far as Pop Culture. But frankly the main thing that does bother me about Jack Thompson is that anybody listens to him at all. http://www.gamecloud.com/article.php?article_id=2558 I knew he had said it. Since technically Buscaglia is a professional in Thompson's field his opinion on him is valid encyclopedically. As Socrate's opinions on AristotleTollwutig 00:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually Buscaglia runs his own blog. Jack actually contacted him asking for a debate 'name the time and place', buscaglia did and Jack apparently backed out. Since he's a professional in the same field, I wonder if we can use his blog as a source... let me just grab the link. http://gameattorney.com/blog/?p=13 there we go. He quotes what he said, and has a few exchanges back and forth between him and Jack. If this is verifiable under the special case stipulation, (even if we can only say this is what Buscaglia claims happened), I think it's good stuff.--Plagiarize 15:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I am thinking Buscaglia's blog would be considered original research not to mention, the admins don't like blogs as research period(See Gamepolitics/Livejournals), but an interview like above, is 3rd party verifiable colleage quote of someones professional opinon on JT, whos is in the same field.--Tollwutig 15:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay I see where your coming from with this. I am going to have a look to see if Buscaglia has been published in credible sources before (as that's basically the only way his 'self published blog' can be considered a good source, if he himself is reputable), but I'm expecting it to be a dead end. This is the specific bit I'm talking about:

• 'Exceptions may be when a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications.'--Plagiarize 16:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, someone on Penny Arcade pointed me to an editorial Buscaglia wrote which covers the aftermath of the Gamecloud interview. I don't know if this meets the criteria or not, as it's an editorial not an interview, and if we DID use it, I think we should clearly state that this is what Buscaglia reported as having happened, and not say that it DID happen. http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060119/buscaglia_01.shtml --Plagiarize 16:59, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we

Since this article is now a stub I think we should combine all sub-articles relating to Jack thompson into this article so we can lengthen it, remove bias, and delete some no longer needed articles.

I don't know what you're reading but it isn't a Stub anymore. Tollwutig 01:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry about that, when I posted this it was a atub.

Chatterbox

Would any of Jack's comments from his July 31st interview with Chatterbox Game Radio (podcast that is also broadcast on radio station KFNX 1100am in Arizona) be a "verifiable" source to site for the page? Namrepus221 02:00, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a link where we can download this or something? It sounds verifiable to me. Anything a person says, naturally, can be used for or against them. And if there's a recording of it, it's no longer just unverifiable hearsay. --Cyde Weys 02:23, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Its archived at http://www.chatterboxgameshow.com/jack.htm in an mp3 format. --Keyne 02:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Brian has stated above that downloadable audio interviews are referenceable.. as they are kinda hard to refute. Tollwutig 04:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

At the same time, the article should not turn into a laundry list of anything he's ever said. At this point, the text pretty well covers the major events of his career that I'm aware of, supported by a number of representative quotations. The only real reason to add more is if they provide new information, otherwise you should be working on Wikiquote instead. --Michael Snow 05:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually the article still needs some work. One thing you have hardly anything regarding Stern. Not to give the man credit but it is one of his own trumpeting points for himself, and is much bigger point in his career than the rap music. Consider that Stern calls him that "This Lunatic Lawyer in Miami" pretty if someone as notable as Stern mentions you, its a notable event in one's career. We're not saying do a laundry list but need to include ALL aspects of someone, to make it NPOV. --Tollwutig 14:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Do we have Stern on record saying that? We could add that to the article if we can source it in the Stern section. Also, I'd love for there to be something about how JT got himself 'certified sane' a while ago. He still likes to trumpet how he's the only 'certified sane' lawyer around. Personally I think it's hilarious and speaks volumes about his self righteousness. I'll dig around to see if I can find it. Someone with more knowledge of such things might now if such a certification is public record. It'd be great to reference the original document. He had it done during the original florida bar investigation as i recall.--Plagiarize 15:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Controversy rewrite

I rewrote the "controversy" section, based on some Miami Herald articles I printed from microfilm today. I renamed the section "1988 state's attorney election" because that was its only topic. I suppose I could scan and e-mail the articles to someone if they really, really wanted. The Herald is a better source than the Stanford article, which cites newspapers as its own sources. There are also inaccuracies: Issues2000.org (and presumably Anderson's book) says that the two were at a debate when Thompson gave Reno the note, but the Herald says that the two were speaking at North Beach Elementary School on Thursday September 8 1988. Predictably, the Herald makes no mention of Parkinson's. Rhobite 03:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

And I moved it to the beginning of the article, so that it fits in with the chronology. I think that was discussed earlier in the talk page by Michael Snow. --Maxamegalon2000 03:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

It's messed up now, mentioning the same event twice in different wording. SanderJK 04:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

That's because we were both working on it at the same time. I've merged them back together, and removed the third- and fourth-hand sources in favor of a more direct report. --Michael Snow 04:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I think yours is more balanced anyway. Rhobite 04:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Should we mention one of the reasons Thompson didn't like Reno was because of how she interviewed him before he graduated law school? He makes it pretty clear in the first chapter of his book. There's link above to the .pdfTollwutig 04:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Is there anything to indicate that the interview was why he ran for office? It doesn't even matter whether he dislikes Reno as a person or not, what's notable about them is that they campaigned against each other and figured in some notable public events. Unless something establishes a connection to those, I don't see why a private interview is relevant to what's in the article. You can draw inferences all you like on your own, but that's effectively original research and you have to resist the urge to write your personal conclusions into the article. --Michael Snow 05:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

According to the Herald, he ran against Reno because she refused to prosecute Neil Rogers. Rhobite 05:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Right, and the St. Petersburg Times says it was because of the lesbian rumors. Both of those bits are in there, and there may be more reasons he ran, but they would need to be supported by sources saying as much directly. --Michael Snow 05:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I only have access to the first chapter of his book where he covers his interview, and admittedly I am not charitable enough towards Thompson to shell out $10 to buy his book. Maybe someone can find it in a Library somewhere. I'll ask around to people I know who have read it to see if he mentions his reasons for his political run.--Tollwutig 18:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Should his campaingn against Reno include his NewsMax "Man in Miami" editorials? It was 10 years after the political campaign, but he continued his apparent grudge against Reno, calling her unfit for the office of AG, suggesting she was on drugs (the whole parkinson's thing), had ties to the mafia, etc. You need to use the waybackmachine to read them, someone else here provided the links. Jabrwock 13:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

His grudge with Reno started long before his political run, he has had a grudge against her since his last year in Law School. Tollwutig 14:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Even more important then to show how long running his beef with her has been. Nearly 30 years of trying to discredit her, most recently with his inferral in his book that she hated cops. He's been after her longer than he's been a "dencency crusader"... Jabrwock 14:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I posted a link in the Links section to a national online newspaper archive. It's got just about ALL of the Thompson v Reno stories archived. If someone were to use it at a library as a reference of when to look they could find all the relevent Reno stuff. And since it is a 30 year grudge it should figure prominently in his article.--Tollwutig 15:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

WTF? A tribute to JT??

What a shock it was to see the new sterile pro-Jack page. Leave it blank, he's of no interest now and I'm sure when he saw it, he was Mr. Happy, if you catch my drift. Maluka 05:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I can verify he was on Game Politics.

During the whole "gamer suicide" episode on Game Politics, Jack Thompson insulted me. (as that is what he does on the internet.) I sent him an email asking for an apology, emails went back and forth, then he CALLED MY CELLPHONE. My caller ID displayed his PUBLIC PHONE NUMBER that is listed. I'm not sure why that isn't verifyable.

I'm also very dissapointed with Wikipedia. Online sources are the way things are going, Wikipedia is a perfect example. This hipocrasy will not stand. Something will happen, Wikipedians will complain, or eventually leave. I'm close. When one man stirs a community so much on the INTERNET, and yet it cannot be reported because its all "anonymous" (despite easy verification from Joystiq, or Dennis from GP). That is crap, and something needs to be done about it. Loque 07:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

You should read Wikipedia's verifiability policy and no original research policy if you haven't read them already, or read them again in more detail if you have. Material must be published by reliable third-party sources before it can be included in Wikipedia. --bainer (talk) 08:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

And if you want something taken off, just threaten to sue them; then they'll bend over backwards for you.

Well, I think that while that page is not nearly as good as it was, it at least still has most of the major topics included. Regardless, I think wikipedia should just revert it to it's Pre Jt threat state, and give JT the Finger in the process. His threat will never ever get anywhere, and wiki should be ashamed for listening to him in the force place. —This unsigned comment is by Mr.Pat (talk • contribs) .

Come on wiki, have a backbone. If your gonna cave to someone who could only argue about 1 item in his article and not show proof of any other discrepencies, then what happens when someone higher up wants a piece of you? —This unsigned comment is by YukimuraSanada (talk • contribs) .

Wikipedia's policies and guidelines need to be applied to all articles, there are no exceptions from policies such as verifiability and neutral point of view for subjects which you think ought to be 'given the finger'. If you wish to give Thompson the finger, please do it yourself. --bainer (talk) 12:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is all well and good, but thats not an excuse for you to be removing verified statments by the man. His own words are his own words. Just cause he might be embaressed by them is no excuse for them to be taken of the records. Wikipedia will rapidly become a shell of it's self when bigger. more powerful people begin to see that they can bully it into removing any negitive conotations about that. AS for giving him the finger. Been there, DONE THAT!. He wasn't exactly friendly about it, but thats nothing new from JT.

Wiki is an encyclopedia, which means that it's supposed to record any and all verifiable info. If the info makes thompson look bad, thats his fault. not Wikis.

The key word is "verifiable." Most of the "colorful" things he has stated are not able to be admitted due to being unverifiable, nor should they be. I don't believe this is really the place for mud-slinging. In its curent form, it is actually a much stronger article; both for and against JBT. That's a good thing. --Keyne 14:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

This whole "internet sources don't count" thing is BS. There are hundreds of pages on Wikipedia dealing with internet-related subjects that only have internet sources. That's the way it has to be, or we should just delete every articl dealing with webcomics, blogs, etc. 64.26.147.176 18:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Its not a matter of internet sources don't count. Its a matter of reputable sources which according to verifiability blogs and message boards do not qualify. Technically LiveJournal and thus Gamepolitics is a blog/message board. This makes things a little difficult, and some of the wildest stuff won't be able to be put in, but as Micheal Snow stated earlier this should be an encyclopedia entry, not a laundry list of all the scandals a Thompson has been involved in.--Tollwutig 18:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Technically, articles with bad sources are in need of clean up. Articles are inherantly stronger, for better or worse, when references are properly cited and backed up with reputable origins. Otherwise, [we] could quote phpBB forums stating anything and everything, which is more than likely not fact-checked, horribly POV, and otherwise unfit for an encyclopedic entry. --Keyne 18:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

GamePolitics = not verifiable, anymore

I know a lot of people here think GP is a fantastic site (and I'm not just saying that because I'm a correspondant... :P )

BUT, GP is no longer a source for Jack quotes/press releases, as his ban from LiveJournal has resulted in all 12 (?) of his accounts's posts being replaced by "reply from a suspended user". So the links to his press releases, and bad behavior, all point to empty posts now... FYI Jabrwock 14:01, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that. On the plus side, WIkiquote has nearly every word he ever said on file. So we can just link there. (YukimuraSanada 14:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC))

Actually it's bad form to link to a Wiki as it is not a repuatble source technically. --Tollwutig 14:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

And as well as that, wikiquote links to the same sources anyway. IanC 15:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Jack would deny that he wrote those comments. Jack must be pretty proud of the comments he has left there, maybe someone should ask him to verify them. --Sonic Hog

That would still fall under original research. Only way you can get thos comments included would be to get a 3rd party to publish them.--Tollwutig 15:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

People can certainly still link to wikiquote elsewhere if they want to direct people to a repository of JT insanity. I know I'll still be sharing that link to people. We just can't link to it as part of the article. Wikipedia doesn't allow you to reference other wikipedia articles directly in backing up a statement, so they don't allow other Wikis. If that seems crazy, think about it. I could make a post on why x=y and then a post on why y=x and cross reference them. all unverified.--Plagiarize 15:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

recent Thompson radio interview

http://www.eagleforum.org/radio/mp3/2006/Thompson-03-11-06a.mp3 http://www.eagleforum.org/radio/mp3/2006/Thompson-03-11-06b.mp3

Example of misinforming when he speaks: "You can't sell an R rated movie ticket, [..] and that hasn't caused the constitution to crumble..." Actually untrue, there are NO legal penalties for selling a kid an R rated movie ticket, or an R rated DVD. Jabrwock 15:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

"Harvard studies show that these games show brain damage" Also untrue, the study did not talk about damage at all, just brain activity. Jabrwock

*If* the study to which Thompson is referring is the Weber study (most recently published in Media Psychology - I just read the study and it's fascinating, particularly the methodology and design) then you're right - the study does not conclude there was brain damage. It merely states there is measurable brain activity commonly associated with violence. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to mention this but there are a few problems. First, it's not clear that this is the exact study to which Thompson is referring. I am positive it is but have no firm evidence. Second, this verges on original research, an obvious Wikipedia no-no. I think a good argument could be made that presenting clear evidence of the prima facie falseness of Thompson's statement is not original research but a regurgitation of the facts. But I doubt that would be acceptable since this article is now being held to ridiculous standards of "verifiable" evidence. --ElKevbo 16:59, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

We'd have to be careful with that though... since wouldn't we need to cite the study itself and some evidence that there are no laws for R rated movies? Would that verge on trying to prove something or not?--Plagiarize 16:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The study one is tough, because there are no studies that say there was brain damage. The Indiana University study makes no mention of children's brain functions being "damaged" by exposure to violent media. It is mentioned that "there is a difference in the brain activation patterns of youths with Disruptive Behaviour Disorder and those without when exposed to a specific stimulus," but it is not explicitly claimed that there is a correlation between exposure to violent media and brain activity. (The study was funded by "Center for Successful Parenting", a lobby group campaigning against media violence.)

The absense of a law forbidding sales of R rated movies to minors is related to a SCOTUS case, which said that you couldn't restrict non-pornographic movies. I'll see if I can find the specific ruling, it was back in the 70's, when Congress tried to write a law to say you couldn't sell an R rated ticket to a minor... Jabrwock 16:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

That, too, seems to be too close to original research to be acceptable for this article. See my discussion a few paragraphs above for a similar argument relating to the "Harvard study." --ElKevbo 16:59, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but how does pointing out factually inaccurate statements made by the man whom this article is about constitute original research? We're not discovering anything new here, not breaking new ground, merely showing that he was in error.

I'm admittedly POV on this article, but I'm doing my best to keep that out of my discussion on this new piece. I do believe, however, that to get a clearer picture of the man, we ought to be showing where he has blatantly lied to further his agenda.216.89.171.253 20:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

My mistake, it was Burstyn v. Wilson (1952), which asserted motion picture's protected status under 1st. Miller v. California 1973 defined specifially what obscenity meant (to make it an exception to the protection, it is the only part of the 1st that differs between adults and minors). Since then, SCOTUS has never made an exception to the protection. SCOTUS has never addressed the issue directly, but American Amusement Machine Association v. Kendrick, 244 F.3d 572 (7th Cir. 2001) ruled that minors cannot be prevented in public from obtaining protected speech (inside the home is another matter, but that's because 1st amendment doesn't protect speech on private property). So movie theatres can CHOOSE to refuse to sell tickets to minors, because it's private property, but Congress cannot FORCE them to refuse to sell a ticket. Jabrwock 17:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree Jabrwock, I have to agree it does smack of original research, which since the article is being watched so closely probably wouldn't cut it even though this is a verifiable fact. What we need to do is get a reputable source to publish an article on it. Then its not original research and thus we could reference the article. Anybody run thier University newspaper? --Tollwutig 17:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe if we word it in such a way "in support of government sponsored video game restrictions, claims that minors cannot legally buy R rated movie tickets (link to interview), in contrast to what the 7th Cir Court has ruled (link to American Amusement Machine Association v. Kendrick)" Jabrwock 18:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about that exact wording, but I think this is something that could be worked in, whereas the other is currently a dead end since JT didn't go so far as to name the study he was referring to. I still wouldn't mind a section on his 'debating style' that detailed his common arguments, if we can manage such a thing in NPOV fashion. It is factually correct to say he regularly uses ad hominem attacks while accusing others of the same, but that would still verge on proving something. I don't want us to focus on proving his arguments are WRONG, but just talking about the style in which he argues, which seems appropriate content for the page, if we can cite it properly. He'll often say 'studies prove' without citing them. We can state that NPOV, but 'often' is the bit that makes it a bit fuzzy as to whether that's trying to prove something or not.--Plagiarize 21:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Sanity claim

Reno Redux in Florida

Under advice of its counsel, in 1990 it tried to disbar me and got a famously partisan Supreme Court of Florida to order me immediately to submit to a psychiatric examination on the grounds that I was mentally incompetent by virtue of a disabling obsession with pornography." Thompson submitted to the examination in good humor and was given a clean bill of health. "I'm proud to say that I'm not only still practicing law," he says, "I am the only officially certified sane lawyer in the entire state of Florida.

Moved this to the bottom of the talk pages. New subject headers should be created at the bottom.--Tollwutig 16:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Whoever posted this... thank you :)--Plagiarize 16:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh and just to make it clear, the link goes to the full detail of the text from the Washington Times, October 29 2001 cover article, so can we put the article itself as the source right instead of this link?--Plagiarize 16:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

There's also some quotes from Thompson directly about running a public campaign to get libraries to remove homosexual education tapes in that same article. It's apparently what led to the florida bar investigating hime in the first place. Given that he'd consider it a success, and given that I think it says a lot about him, it'd probably be something good to put in. Quote follows.--Plagiarize 16:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Thompson then launched a public campaign opposing the placement of homosexual-education tapes in the public schools by Switchboard of Miami, a social-services group that claims to help troubled teens. "The tapes were included in the sex-education programs, but I argued that they violated a 1978 state statute which banned such materials," Thompson says.

I would rewrite to paraphrase the quote, and reference it. Encyclopedia's usually don't quote the person unless it is a famous quote. "I have a Dream" "Ask not what your country..." Those are the only types of quotes you'd see in an encyclopedia from someone in thier own article.

Following his campaign against 2 Live Crew Thompson launched a public campaign opposing the placement of homosexual-education tapes in the public schools by Switchboard of Miami. Thompson argued the tapes violated a 1978 state statute which banned such materials. This culminated in 1990 when the Florida Supreme Court ordered Thompson to submit to psychiatric evaulation, from which he was given a clean bill of health

If someone could clean up the above with links and such I think it would make an appropriate portion. Its not everyday lawyers are ordered to get psychiatric evaluations. --Tollwutig 17:52, 15 March 2006 (UTC) (forgot to sign)

Also if someone can find somewhere else to cite this as well as the time lines are vague. The 2 Live Crew thing went into the 90s but here they only list after 1998 then without dates until 1990 when the FLSC ordered the evaluation.--Tollwutig 18:09, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see this in, the only thing I'd say about what it says about this, is that it isn't quite clear on what grounds they demanded Jack submit to the evaluation. Maybe I just want to see mentally incompetent by virtue of a disabling obsession with pornography somewhere in the article, but it does seem a little strange as it stands without any explanation as to what grounds he was asked to undergo this examination.--Plagiarize 20:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The reason is not included because the explanation comes from a suspect source. I would want to see the order, or some reporting directly about the order, to support the reason it was given. The order certainly couldn't have said that he was mentally incompetent, the point of the psychiatric examination was to determine that. --Michael Snow 21:11, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Got it, we just have Thompson's word it not actual evidence. When I get time I'll try and find out exactly what happened, now I know more about what case it related to and such.--Plagiarize 21:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Here's another source we could use for this part - it mentions the sanity question at the bottom of the page. http://money.cnn.com/2003/01/29/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm This article also mentions some other juicy tidbits about the man that could be used elsewhere.

Thompson's book can also be cited. I am not sure which chapter but he still gloats he is the only officially sane lawyer in florida. Anyone have his boo? --Tollwutig 22:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I've got news for you guys

Now that you've removed everything Jack told you to, he's still not going to leave you alone. To him, this will be considered an admission of guilt and the lawsuit will still go on. This is exactly how it occured when he threatened another site to take down an avatar of him being hit in the head with a game console. Mr.Pat 19:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

But because the avatar was taken down, he no longer had a case. He can't punish them for having the avatar if they aren't posting it anymore... Which is why he resorted to trying to get them arrested, which didn't work out either. Jabrwock 19:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

This is all verifiable public record. I wouldn't worry too much. --Keyne 19:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Knowing the extent of Jack's ego, I'm pretty sure he's going to complain why his "predictions" or "victories" aren't listed.KungFu-tse 20:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

His "victories" are listed, those that we can verify. However, putting someone's predictions in an encyclopedic entry is just silly, unless they are known for such things (like Nostradomus or something). I can predict any number of things, and if one of them happens to come true, so what? 1 guess out of 100 doesn't mean I know anything, it just means I've made a lot of guesses. 216.89.171.253 22:59, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, and look at the article right now. Seems more NPOV then it was yesterday. Sure it doesn't have everything yet, but it doesn't praise the man anymore.BrendantheJedi 22:43, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Jack Attacks Wiki

Would it be worth mentioning in this article something about how someone who purported to be Jack Thompson vandalized his own wiki article, then threatened legal action against Wikipedia if it was not taken down? This is verifiable by the owners of the Wiki, and other sources I'm certain. Further, was it not decided pre-blank that Wikipedia's own logs were admissable without violating WP:SELF? While the vandalism itself may not be verifiably Jack, the legal threat was verifiably him. Inclusion of this could also open the way for a section detailing his other numerous threats of legal action. Then again, maybe I'm just getting my hopes up.216.89.171.253 20:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Once it gets reported on, there's nothing to stop us talking about it. We can't reference wiki, BUT once a newspaper or similar reputable source talks about it we'd be remiss not to mention it here. Patience is all we need right now.--Plagiarize 21:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Easy, Just use GP's main page. While the comments section isn't reputable, you got to assume the main page is. 67.175.123.49 22:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Still technically a LiveJournal, and while personally I do not doubt Dennis' integrity we have to play by the rules. According to Wiki GP does not meet qualifications to be a reputable source.--Tollwutig

Speaking of Sources...

Well, it seems that the general consensus is that GameSpot is credible since it's owned by Cnet Networks. Since we're debating what is and what isn't a credible source, let's get this out of the way now so that we don't have to debate about it in the future. Shall we?
Here's my question. What about IGN/GameSpy? Or Ziff Davis Media?
I would say yes since IGN Entertainment is a major network that owns IGN/GameSpy, TeamXbox, AskMen, RottenTomatoes, and bunch of other websites. Also, Rupert Murdoch now owns it since he went on a shopping spree not too long ago (purchasing IGN and Myspace in the process). IGN is now a subsidiary of New Corporation (parent company of Fox, DirecTV, and many others).
Ziff Davis runs EGM, OPM, CGW, PC Mag, eWeek, and others. Ziff Davis has been around since 1927.
Any comments? Any other "news" sources that we need to discuss?KungFu-tse 20:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

It's entirely too simplistic to judge the validity of a source based on its ownership. That's similar to the current push for all or nearly all of the sources here to be print sources. Those are just not good ways of judging the credibility of a source. The media and the ownership certainly can be helpful but to base judgment solely or even heavily on them is wrong. In general, I believe that throwing out a source as not credible because of its media or its owner is the same as an ad hominem attack and unacceptable for the same reasons. There are good writers, researchers, and scholars working in every medium (even the much maligned blogs) and for nearly every organization and owner. --ElKevbo 21:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Your logic would suggest MySpace is also a credible source, which is nonsense. I also note that GameSpot's website identifies it as part of CNET's Games and Entertainment division, which is a far cry from something like News.com for our purposes here.

The current article is well-supplied with high-quality sources and should only accept more of the same. We don't need niche media with an obvious bias in the matter just because that's all some people know how to find. The sheer laziness of that approach is what made the old article such a hash to begin with, and we're not going down that road again. --Michael Snow 21:32, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

See this doesnt make sense, excluding games newssources just because they are to do with games.IanC 21:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Simply because a news source is dedicated to a particular subject does not mean that their articles should be considered low quality, especially when this particular one has the fact-checking power and reputation of CNet behind it. 216.89.171.253 21:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The National Equirer has American Media behind it, but I wouldn't trust 'em as far as I could throw 'em. However, American Media also does Men's Health, which could arguably be a good source. Just because CNet owns GameSpot doesn't necessarily make them credible, especially in cases where the inherent bias is obvious. Since so many other sources are available what could GameSpot add to the article? .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 21:56, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

A new source's bias on what they report isn't really germaine here. Would you trust Men's Health to give you good information on an adult male's physical well-being? Would you trust Guns and Ammo to give you good information of firearms? Simply because they only report on one issue doesn't mean they are poor choices, especially when they have the considerable fact-checking power of the Ziff Davis industries behind them. This isn't to say that we should trust any old source, goodness no, but I would think that Gamespot has been around long enough to be trustworty. 216.89.171.253 22:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Snow, using your logic, Fox News would not be a reputable source at all either :). Seriously though, their coverage of him may not be in the best light, but they can't just tell blatent lies. What they do tell is most likely the truth. And Wiki's job is to tell the same. Anyways, there is some stuff supports his cause as well. It does detail how we gamers threatened him. BrendantheJedi 22:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I assert that a particular article, page, or other "piece" of information from MySpace *could* be credible and valid. That would depend on the person who wrote it, the style in which they wrote it, etc. I certainly agree that such an article would have much more difficulty in proving its credibility given its unlikely source but to argue that its impossible is silly. The blind acceptance given to newspaper articles (which do *not* undergo peer review) by some editors on Wikipedia who also toss out any source originating on the Internet is snobbish and arrogant. It's piss-poor research and just as poisonous as relying on unverified Internet-only sources. The pendulum has swung too far. --ElKevbo 22:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I am very much looking forward to an explanation why gamespot.com is any less a reliable or verifiable source then a local newspaper. The only argument i can think of is that they are biased by there very nature, but guess what, every form of every media is biased. Some subtly, some less subtle. I know the political standing of every major newspaper in my country, and the differences in reporting style on almost all events are affedcted by it. The instances where people want to quote them however do not rely on their bias, only on their credibility and verifiability. If they say Mr. Thompson sent them an email containing statements X and Y, and those statements are concerned notable or typical for him by consensus, can we not include them because no paper media printed them? It is folly, and discrimination against pure online sources.

If it is a) noteworthy that he says such things b) It is verifiable online that he said such things, why can we not say it. The paper/online resource debate here is idiotic. The basis in wiki rules are about how well researched the source is. Where facts double checked? I know gamespot consulted both Thompson and the EA president on the Sims 2 case directly, something that i doubt many did.

They are careful about there statements, they check up on things, they are verifiable (all news they ever printed is still accessible online, although not always easy to find), they are notable with both their company name, their size, and their part of major coorperation. If gamespot.com is thrown out simply because they publish online and not on the web, it is nothing more then prejudice. SanderJK 22:16, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the truth is, all media is biased. That's one of the first things you learn when you take journalism or TV class. Whatever you see and hear is told through whoever writes the story, regarless of whether it's CNN or the New York Times. Every story is written by a human. And every story has to be edited and trimmed down so that an anchor can read it within a limited amount of time. A lot of people complain that CNN is too liberal and Fox is too conservative. Contraversial conservative Ann Coulter is known to "hate" the New York Times.

Also, just because the mainstream media is more popular doesn't mean it's infallible. They don't specialize in gaming, GameSpot and IGN do. My health and nutrition professor at UNT used to tell about how she was misquoted about cholesterol HDLs and LDLs when she was being interviewed for a magazine about health. The editor wrote about how you consume HDLs and LDLs. We'll, cholesterol is produced by your body. You don't eat HDL and LDL, you make it.

And just this morning, my local television station reported that the PS3 was scheduled for a spring launch and will be delayed til fall. While it's accurate, it was missing the fact that it was going to be a spring launch for Japan. North America never had a spring launch. But the way the story was written, they made it sound like the PS3 was originaly going to be released in the sping in the US. The story was slightly misleading by not mentioning Japan.

Of course, the best example is the infamous O.J. Simpson mugshot on the covers of Time and Newsweek. It's the same mugshot, but Time magazine's version was much darker and was obviously edited.

Anyone remember how Kanye West complained about the media coverage of Hurricane Katrina? There's was a photo by the AP of a couple of black people searching in the water and the title said that they were stealing. Then there was a similar photo but of a white couple and the title of the picture said they were searching for food. The AP later retitled the photo featuring the black couple and apologized.KungFu-tse 22:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

If anyone can tell me specifically why any of the sources currently being used would be biased in its reporting about Jack Thompson, I'll be happy to reconsider whether it should be relied upon. With respect to GameSpot, it should be clear why a niche media site, considered by its proprietor more entertainment than news, and substantially focused on product reviews and forums, is significantly inferior to mainstream strictly-news sources with no obvious axe to grind. There are undoubtedly Wikipedia articles for which GameSpot would be an acceptable source, even an excellent one, but not here unless there's a very good reason for it. --Michael Snow 22:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that in last week's "Burning Questions", Gamespot Editor Greg Kasavin said, "We have separate news, previews, and reviews departments, each with its own mission and specialization. The groups collaborate where it makes sense, but they produce content independently." [16] --Maxamegalon2000 22:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

There is a major problem with this road of thinking, Jack Thompson is really not notable enough(aside from Janet Reno stuff as he was in the poltical spotlight) for mainstream news to report on him as a news peice/what he does, he is merely used as what is called an "expert" in journalism, which just cites him as a source and makes his credablity look better. What he is really intensivly doing right now and is known for is video games.

The thing is besides niche magazines/newspapers, who really cares about what some extremly non-notable attorney (in terms of mainstrem press) actually does, thus you are really only going to get things that are of true news nature releated to him from niche reporting, no major tradtional news source is going to bother to do an investgative peice on somebody as miniscule in terms of national news as Jack Thompson.

Thus this rule is techinally censoring the article to remove negative lights from Jack Thompson, as in recent times only his expert testiomny articles fall under the proper catgory for sources. It's like writing an article on some Linux Code Rebel writer who is extremly well known in his community, but saying you can only use mainstream newspaper for info about him not any linux news sites, you aren't going to find much, if any. Gamespot and zdnet in terms of game news are HIGHLY HIGHLY credibly, corporate run sites with fact checkers and all staffers paid much better then the baxter bullietien. 203.112.2.212 23:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

appendum: there is some living bios on wikipedia that have probably never even appeared in a newspaper, they are just known well in their particular field and have appeared in niche magazines, Jack thompson is now known for his video games, thus niche videogame magazines with an intrest in this should be valid sources, wikipedia has no legal fault if they do source gamespot, as it can easily in court be held up as a credible source plus jack has never threatened to sue them for anything they have put up 203.112.2.212 23:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Would the fact that Mr. Thompson sends his "press releases" to everyone, including GameSpot help? Also, GameSpot actually talks to Mr. Thompson on the phone on some stories and will sometimes email GameSpot exclusively. [17]

[18]KungFu-tse 00:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Call me at the below number if you want or need my new email address or need to communicate something other than a death threat to me. Note: Thompson asked GameSpot not to publish his phone number.

No sorry, According to Mr.Snow that is an evil website that reports about games and they can't be trusted for anything because they have an obvious pro-game bias and have written negative commentary on Jack. All this even when they just post Jack's press release, because it's obvious a corporate company run by CNET would lie and make up Jack's press release because they are so biased and unworthy of being anywhere near mentioned along with the greatness that is the ultimate Journalistic Media source known as The Baxter Bulletin,. 203.112.2.212 00:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

If you read the Miami Herald articles you can tell that they aren't exactly fond of Thompson. They just cover it better--Tollwutig 23:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Just the fact that it's a niche media is no ground for in- or exclusion. You find more science news in science media, more tech news in tech media, more games news in games media, more sports news in sports media, more fashion news in fashion media. Wikipedia uses all of these no doubt, and has no rule saying why you should not. It warns you to be very careful of special interest media, but even then does not autodisqualify. Gamespot.com reported extensively on some jack thompson incidents involving games, with more detail then non-niche media. SanderJK 23:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that an automatic bias against online sources is unacceptable and unprofessional. There's nothing wrong with citing a GameSpot news article when it comes to information relating to the gaming industry, unless that information is actively disputed. In addition, there are different ways of citing; if you only have a single source for a particular event, you can write: "According to X, ..."

As a journalist who has worked for print and online publications, I have experienced different levels of professionalism in both media, but the level of unprofessionalism in print media is often shocking and surprising. Especially for newspapers, deadlines are very tough, and editors are often responsible for getting an article ready for print even though they know nothing about the subject, introducing errors in the process. So let's not unfairly discriminate against publications just because they happen to reside on the Internet, or because they are specialist sources (and thus more likely to report arcane details on a colorful personality like Thompson).--Eloquence* 23:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Military funded games

Thompson also claims that some violent video games are based on technology from the Institute for Creative Technologies, which was created by the Department of Defense to help stem soldiers' inhibition to kill. According to Thompson, "The Army uses these games to break down the inhibition to kill of new recruits." Since it's not an online source, I can't check the cite - but presumably this is a direct reference to the 2004 game Full Spectrum Warrior, which makes no secret of its DoD/ICT connection. Zoganes 23:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

You forget about America's Army. --Keyne 23:25, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

America's Army is recruitment propaganda; it sells the idea that the U.S. Army is a good career choice, people in the army already don't need that. It only can possibly refer to Full Spectrum Warrior and Full Spectrum Command. I had originally written this in the original article (with an explanatory parenthetical concerning the fact that the U.S. army commisioned FSW/C as a tool to teach their soldiers tactical teamwork instead of having them play mindless shooters. I guess this is "slanted" POV because it simoultaneously disproves that a) the U.S. military uses games to desensitize since, of course, they commissioned a game to STOP their soldiers from playing those games and b) that FSW/C were made to teach them command and control, not killing) before the wikimedia foundation decided to sell their integrity. Professor Ninja 00:09, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

And the special version of DOOM, "Marine Doom", that was created in 1998 for fireteam training Namrepus221 06:44, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Wiki section

I've added a small section on Jack Thompson threatening legal action against wikipedia. Could use some editing and obviously anyone who questions the validity of the source is a moron. Thus if this section ends up getting deleted by the mods it will speak volumes upon volumes on what REALLY happened concerning Jack and Wikipedia. Father Time89

I think the section would work best in a sub-section about the insane amount of people he has threatened to sue, unfortunly considering he sends out like 3 press releases(or ccs sue threat e-mails to the press) a day about all the people he is going to sue, nobody but extreme niche sites report on that and apparently we can only use sources that don't give two flips about jack thompson or doing any research on him 203.112.2.212 23:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

No this is important because it shows that Jack threatened legal action against Wiki and then Wiki removed most of the negative things about Jack thompson from the article. Father Time89

Micheal Snow can you please tell me why you keep deleting my section concerning the wikipedia controversy? Father Time89

No reliable source as Wikipedia can not cite itself and is not considered a valid source. Again, nobody really cares about Jack Thompson besides niche media, so no newspaper is ever going to report on these things, so according to Michael Snow in the context of this article, it never happened. Censoring through sources 203.112.2.212 00:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

He said the source is unreliable? How can a statement coming from the people directly involved a conflict be unreliable? Ok let me put it this way say someone threatened to sue a website, wouldn't an official public statement from the website that was posted on the website be a reliable source? I think so. Saying it is not is dumb, that would mean that if you're neighbor said he was robbed, and then showed you his empty house, you wouldn't believe it until you read about it in the newspaper. Father Time89

Mr. Snow hasn't responded yet, I wonder why? Father Time89

I responded on your talk page already. If you think a post by a completely unknown person on a Wikipedia talk page is an acceptable source to support adding some fact to an encyclopedia article, there really isn't any point in discussing with you. --Michael Snow 00:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, User:XSTRIKEx6864 says that he got the quotes from Jack's letter from GamePolitics. --Maxamegalon2000 01:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm with you all the way Fathertime, but according to Mr.Snow the new appointed guardian of this page, nothing is reliable unless it has come from the mainstream press(and according to offical Wikipedia policy, wikipedia in any form not a valid source). aka, according to Mr.Snow, it's possible a corpoate gaming news site have an agenda and are just making up the fact that he treatened to sue them, whereas mainstream newspress would fact check it. And apparantly thourgh some warped recursive logic that doesn't make any sense, saying that a person has been accused of something by another person is not considered enclyopedic information because you don't have a reliable source(even if the accusation is coming straight from the second person's site), unless a 3rd party major news outlet reported on this, then you can say newspaper reported that so and so accused someone of something. 203.112.2.212 00:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Can we set up a "see also" page that includes all the press releases this man has handed out? It'll probably take up a good four to five pages but I think that would give people more insight about John Bruce Thompson.

Already exists on wikiquotes and I'm adding it in, of course that wikiquotes page is probably going to die too, once Mr.Snow takes a look at it and see all those press releases with no sources. 203.112.2.212 00:46, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

People Michael Snowis acting in the best interest of the article. While I do disagree with him regarding Gamespot.com I am doing so politely. Wikipedia is not a good source on itself. The article as it is evolving now is NPOV and VERY strongly sourced, in other words: liebel proof. The truth is coming out in the article. We just have to find strong sources, and no one has said online sources cannot be used, they just should be well researched sources. Basically if I find an article on gamespot that is well researched and unbiased, you better believe I will stick it into the Links section and argue for its use. --Tollwutig 02:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)