Talk:Jack and Jill

History

• According to [1] the two characters are Jack and Gill—a second boy—and that the rhyme refers to Wolsey and Tarbes. Any corroboration?
• According to [2], the first external source listed in the entry, the rhyme dates back to at least 1760, discrediting the 1795 date and possibly the whole story in the Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette origin.

Acording to Roger Evans in Don't tell I, tell 'ee (an affectectionate look at the somerset dialect.) the Rhyme is based on a historical coulple that lived in Kimersdon, Somerset. Jack who was killed be a stone falling from or falling off a stone on Bad Stone Hill and his lover Jill who died in childbirth. Not only does this hill have a well on top (unusual as gravity usualy drags water down to lowlying levels). But more convincingly liguisticaly Jill and Hill are rhymimg words as are Down and Crown but Water and After dont! unless said in the West Country dialect, so Jack an Jill went up the hill To vetch a payul of wadder Jack fell down an broke ees crown An' Jill came tumbling adder.

Should this be added ?

It might be worth noting that the village of Kimersdon, the self-proclaimed home of the Jack and Jill nursery rhyme has no obvious source of water at the top of the hill, and in fact sports a perfectly servicable stream at the bottom. What were they doing at the top of the hill?. The hill isn't really steep enough to fall down either.

Another possible interpretation is based on the fact that this popular song seems to be expressing public satisfaction at the downfall of some couple which had "gone up the hill," i. e., had risen dramatically in social standing, and has now suffered their comeuppance. One thinks, perhaps, of the downfall of King James I's favorite Robert Carr, Earl of Somerset, and his wife Frances, who fell from grace as a result of the poisoning of Sir Thomas Overbury in the Tower, in 1615. ---- Dana F. Sutton —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.122.34 (talk) 06:02, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

It was stated in Dew Ponds `History observation and experiment` by Edward A Martin in 1915 that the reason Jack and Jill went up the hill was to fetch water from a dew pond. Dew ponds are found on or near the top of hills. --palmiped |  Talk  20:31, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

jack and jill went up the hill to have a little fun

stupid jill forgot the pill and now they have a son —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.21.243.66 (talk) 09:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

An alternative sexual version not mentioned in the article

Jack and Jill
went up the hill
just to have some fun

Silly Jill
forgot the pill
and now they have a son.

217.132.185.86 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC).

-- There's also the version I heard in the school yard as a kid . . .

Jack and Jill
Went up the hill
To smoke some Marijuana
Jack got high, unzipped his fly
And Jill said "I don't wanna" 24.11.21.161 (talk) 08:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively...

Jack and Jill went up the hill
To fetch a pail of water
Don't know what they did up there
But now they've got a daughter

This version's well-known where I'm from (South East England). Anyone think some examples of parodic versions should be added to the main article? ~ Wave —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.28.117.34 (talk) 14:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

All additions to Wikipedia articles require proper sourcing or they should be removed. Please see WP:PROVEIT. :bloodofox: (talk) 10:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The one I know ( not sexual but creepy af) is Jack and Jill Went up the hill To fetch a pail of water Jack fell down the well That led to hell For Jill was Satan's daughter

Pebblez Playz (talk) 13:23, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

And I don't think the in appropriate ones should be added to the main article coz there could be lil kids who just searched up Jack and Jill coz it was their favourite nursery rhyme. Like, they'd be scared for life were. Pebblez Playz (talk) 13:28, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Unsourced versions

The number of unsourced versions is growing. I will give fair time for sources to be found, but there is no way of knowing if these are genuine without reliable sources, so I will be deleting these soon.--SabreBD (talk) 12:42, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

note - common usage and recital in an area strikes me as a reasonable sourcing - the problem is - it would be hard to call original research when those versions are far better known than ancient 1870's versions. I will perhaps see which common versions (not the naughty ones) that I can find in print, which should make for reasonable citation. 81.108.144.184 (talk) 16:50, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree and have taken the suggested action. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 23:16, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Dame Dob

To Sabrebd - can you verify your "Dame Dob" version of the Rhyme, I've not heard it, and it sounds like a naughty schoolchild's sexualised version. Otherwise, I think the "went to bed and patched his head" seems correct. While you may find your version a laugh, it neither seems appropriate, nor well known so I don't think it belongs on the article. Perhaps in the section above on the discussion page? 81.108.144.184 (talk) 15:52, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

[3] has a version.--SabreBD (talk) 16:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

While I can see that the mother goose version is close (note not the same) as the version you have placed on the main page, it is hardly the most commonly known version, and common usage now of the word nob is different enough that I don't think I'd want my 2 year old reciting this version. From the number of other edits (now looking at history) that you've reverted to this version, I think your version perhaps belongs somewhere other than on the main page here. Either this, or perhaps wikipedia is not the appropriate place for finding nursery rhyme lyrics (despite a leading search engine thinking so). 81.108.144.184 (talk) 16:43, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

If your 2 year old is surfing the the net you should probably note WP:NOTCENSORED. I have no objection to reflecting a "modern" version at the top of the article and then the original further down as long as the modern version is properly sourced, preferably with some statement that indicates it is in widespread usage.--SabreBD (talk) 16:53, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Noted - 2 year old is not surfing, I was looking for lyrics to remember it for her. Having a search of books, this (probably later print) of Mother Goose has the version I recognise: [4] 81.108.144.184 (talk) 17:00, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I think I have managed to find sources to support the newer version as common, but its a bit complicated and I need to do a bit more research. I will try to post something over the holiday.--SabreBD (talk) 21:06, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Suggested external link

Here's the poem's visualisation in Poem Viewer: an interactive tool from Oxford University that graphs the rhymes, consonance/assonance, and other properties of text. MartinPoulter Jisc (talk) 11:36, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done That's a really interesting website, I'm glad you suggested it. Andrew³²⁷ 12:06, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I have no objection in principle to this being added, but to be honest I have no idea what it tells us.--SabreBD (talk) 13:35, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

It shows that as well as rhyming at the end of lines as you'd expect, the rhyme has lots of other linguistic repetitions and properties that perhaps account for its catchiness. The interactive element lets users examine particular aspects of the rhyme. It's sort of a research tool. Thanks Andrew. MartinPoulter Jisc (talk) 11:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I guess I am just used to finding that stuff by reading the verse.--SabreBD (talk) 12:54, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. Not everybody knows the linguistic terminology. MartinPoulter Jisc (talk) 10:23, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Jack and Jill Hill, Somerset

Interesting that there is no reference to Jack and Jill hill in the village of Kilmersdon in Somerset (unless I have missed them). There is a well at the top of the hill, which is called Jack and Jill Hill, and a wall plaque which explains that Jack and Jill (Gill) lived locally and went up the hill every day for water. One day, a stone from the nearby quarry hit Jack. Jack died. However, Gill was pregnant with their son who was named Gilson, still a popular surname in the area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.159.77 (talk) 15:00, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Another meaning?

Some years ago, a young mother, being a professional teacher for young children, from Sacramento, CA, told me that the rhyme refers to an old medieval(?) ordeal and/or punishment for adultery: The man had to carry a pail of water up a steep hill with the woman bound to his other hand, arm or leg by a rope. Most likely the water would spill over, making the ascent slippery, so the man was endangered to fall down, break his skull and pull the woman with him. Sorry I cannot give any reference, but regarding the inventiveness of those times in bringing people from life to death, this seems not too far-fetched to me. I think it could be a nice task for someone with some time and interest in (or even knowledge of) the history of penal law. 95.33.113.250 (talk) 04:37, 23 January 2018 95.33.104.142 (talk) 14:22, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

What's a "dab verse"?

This term is used in the article but not explained. Equinox ◑ 14:05, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

crown

What does that mean, he broke his crown? There's a german figure of speech "break a spike from one's crown" (einen Zacken aus der Krone brechen) meaning to get embarrassed by sth., is this the same? --88.66.2.63 (talk) 22:25, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

The crown is the top of a person's head. Equinox ◑ 16:54, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Google it Pebblez Playz (talk) 13:25, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 25 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Jack and Jill. While pageviews do favor the film, there is a rough consensus that the nursery rhyme wins by long-term significance. No such user (talk) 07:02, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

---

• Jack and Jill (nursery rhyme) → Jack and Jill
• Jack and Jill → Jack and Jill (disambiguation)

– It is the WP:PRIMARY TOPIC Sahaib3005 (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2021 (UTC). Here is evidence https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2020-07-24&end=2021-07-24&pages=Jack_and_Jill%7CJack_and_Jill_of_America%7CJack_and_Jill_(2011_film)%7CJack_and_Jill_(nursery_rhyme)%7CJack_and_Jill_School%7CJack_and_Jill_(magazine)%7CJack_and_Jill_(upcoming_film)%7CJack_and_Jill_(comics)%7CJack_and_Jill_(party)%7CJack_and_Jill_(dance) Sahaib3005 (talk) 20:49, 26 July 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Colin M (talk) 17:45, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

• Against: per the article, the phrase Jack & Jill (meaning male and female partner) is the primary topic. There are so many uses of the phrase in different contexts that the article on its use in the nursery rhyme needs disambiguation. Sweetpool50 (talk) 10:02, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose no evidence or argument offered. Automatic fail at RM In ictu oculi (talk) 12:44, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

• In ictu oculi, courtesy ping to let you know that the nom added evidence/argument after you left your comment.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 02:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, but as Bait30 notes below results show a fail anyway. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:59, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: The pageviews show that Jack and Jill (2011 film) has more views than the nursery rhyme.  Bait30  ^{Talk 2 me pls?} 02:24, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Sweetpool50 and Bait30. Peter Ormond 💬 03:18, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support: The longterm significance criterion makes Jack and Jill the clear primary topic even if it gets less pageviews, since I don't think there is another usage of the term that wasn't inspired by the rhyme. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 04:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support, precisely per ZXCVBNM. BD2412 T 19:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support. This seems like one of those cases where the primary topic can't be determined by pageviews. The vast majority of entries on the disambiguation page are derived from the nursery rhyme, with one exception being the 2011 film. I am satisfied that primary topic criteria are met here. Sean Stephens (talk) 12:02, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

  Is there proof that the film's title isn't derived from the rhyme? I would assume that it was named that way due to the name recognition of the rhyme, causing it to be a humorous pun. (People expect there to be a Jack and Jill, but it really means he is both Jack and Jill). _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 12:52, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

  @Zxcvbnm: I don't actually know, to be perfectly honest. I was basing that on my minimal knowledge of the film, but it's definitely likely to be the case. I'll have a quick Google search and insert it into the article if it's verifiable. Sean Stephens (talk) 01:29, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

  This and this both seem to indicate that it definitely takes some inspiration from the original source. The third paragraph of the first one appears to be particularly useful for this article, actually. Sean Stephens (talk) 02:01, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support. This is clearly the main topic.--Berig (talk) 17:54, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support. I agree that the nursery rhyme is primary by long-term significance. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 17:23, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 21:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suggested references for use

Various editors above have expressed that they feel the article as it currently stands is in need of expansion. I've found the following references if anyone wants to make use of them

• https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/55035/dark-origins-11-classic-nursery-rhymes/
• https://www.interestingliterature.com/2017/05/a-short-analysis-of-the-jack-and-jill-nursery-rhyme/
• https://www.roanoke.edu/documents/AcademicAffairs/HowtoWriteandCitebasetext.pdf

There was also an Owlcation article but it appears that site has been blacklisted. Unsure how reliable or useful these all may be, but it's a start. Sean Stephens (talk) 01:49, 29 July 2021 (UTC)