Talk:Jeyran (wife of Naser al-Din Shah)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 21:22, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

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• ... that for Jeyran, the beloved wife of Naser al-Din Shah, a fake genealogy was created that connected her to the Sassanids and Ilkhans? Source: Khosrow Motazed, from Forough Al-Saltanah to Anis Al-Dawlah, p. 145-146

Created by Amir Ghandi (talk). Self-nominated at 17:42, 8 January 2021 (UTC).

Hello Amir Ghandi - I will review this. Suggest you add more wikilinks - obviously words like "Tehran" and "Shah" are incredibly ordinary to you but if you think, for example, of an American high school student reading the article they might not know the meaning. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:48, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Chidgk1: ok, thanks for your suggestAmir Ghandi (talk) 14:02, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I am confused by "attributed to". Is the picture supposedly of her or is she just the painter? If the former you could consider trying for the picture option of DYK. Chidgk1 (talk) 14:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Is the name of her mother known? Chidgk1 (talk) 14:31, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Chidgk1: This painting is attributed to Asieh Khanum, the wife of Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar, and to Jeyran. According to Jeyran and secrets of Nasser al-Din Shah's harem, this painting does not have a date and signature, so only the painting should be matched with the appearance, and this painting is similar to Jeyran and Asieh Khanum. Nor is her mother's name mentioned anywhere Amir Ghandi (talk) 14:34, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps I am going off topic slightly but if there is any more info about the picture I think it would be great if you could add it to the description on Wikimedia. For example explain why the source seems to be a book and where the original painting was/is and why we are unsure of the subject. It might be less work for you to expand the Farsi description on Wikimedia - then I could use Google Translate. Chidgk1 (talk) 15:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Chidgk1: It is the source of a book because this painting is included there. But the original painting remains in Jeyran's mansion in Tehran, and as I said, due to the lack of any signature and date, it is speculated that this painting is Asieh Khanoum or Jeyran.Amir Ghandi (talk) 16:02, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Please could you translate the titles of the sources, for example "Qebleh-ye 'ālam". You can do that with the visual editor or in the source editor add "trans-title" parameter. Chidgk1 (talk) 17:59, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Chidgk1:it could be translated to direction of the world or Pivot of the Universe.

OK great you could add it to the other refs like I just did to ref 1 Chidgk1 (talk) 18:09, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

done Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:19, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• ALT1 just rearranged, but I think reads better: ... that a fake genealogy was created for Jeyran, the beloved wife of Naser al-Din Shah, that connected her to the Sassanids and Ilkhans? Source: Khosrow Motazed, from Forough Al-Saltanah to Anis Al-Dawlah, p. 145-146 I agree something like "Shah of Persia" should probably bwe added too. Johnbod (talk) 18:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Your suggestion is good, but I think "Shah of Persia" is not suitable.Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:19, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I am not quite sure where you are quoting directly from the English language books. Are all the quotes in quotation marks and is the rest paraphrasing? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:14, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I do not understand what you mean. Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:19, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I was just wondering whether the Farsi article might have translated some quotes from the English books and then you translated back into English? Do you have copies of the sources? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:34, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

No quotes None of the English books were translated. None of the sources are in English at all. I mistranslated some of them, it was my distraction.Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:37, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Ah OK - so on the refs you can put the "title" in original language (are all the sources in Farsi?) and "trans-title" in English. So the stuff in quotation marks is your translation of quotes which are in the Farsi article? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:51, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes.Amir Ghandi (talk) 18:52, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

It seems some are in block quotes in the Farsi article. So do you think they would look better as block quotes here? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:56, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

It depends on which ones you mean.Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:00, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

OK I leave it to you to decide if block quotes are better or not. Forgot to mention you can put "lang=fa" on the Farsi sources like I just did on number 2 Chidgk1 (talk) 19:05, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

done. can you check the sections that is "clarification needed"? because i fix it. and i think block quotes is fine for article.Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:13, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

• ALT2 Johnbod I guess OK to use pic even though we are not sure it is her? ... that a fake genealogy was created for Jeyran (perhaps pictured), the beloved wife of Naser al-Din Shah, that connected her to the Sassanids and Ilkhans? Source: Khosrow Motazed, from Forough Al-Saltanah to Anis Al-Dawlah, p. 145-146

@Chidgk1: I agreeAmir Ghandi (talk) 18:21, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't suppose there is any info on what people thought of her whilst she was alive? Chidgk1 (talk) 19:15, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Or how she got on with the other wives? Chidgk1 (talk) 19:15, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

So did the Shah have formal marriage ceremonies or were his mistresses and wives pretty much the same? Chidgk1 (talk) 19:15, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Apart from the succession did she influence his ruling at all? Chidgk1 (talk) 19:15, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

If this film was made are there any reviews? Chidgk1 (talk) 19:22, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Chidgk1: According to Abbas Amanat, the shah's mother, Malek Jahan Khanom was hostile to Jeyran and in the ceremony that was arranged on the occasion of her and Nasser al-Din Shah's marriage, contrary to the usual custom that the king's mother should be invited; This was a sign of Malek Jahan Khanom's deep opposition to their marriage. (P. 430) Marriage was very different during the reign of Nasser al-Din Shah. There were two types of marriages, concubine and Normal marriage, Nasser al-Din Shah usually married his beloved concubine wives. Jeyran was Nasser al-Din Shah's wife for 9 years; If she survived, she would probably have had a lot of influence, like Malek Jahan Khanom, but at the same time she used a lot of influence to make her son crown prince. I wanted to mention this series, yes, Hassan Fathi is making a series called "Jeyran". And if it is published, it will probably receive reviews.Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:34, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

That looks interesting and worth including for the bits where you have good sources. No rush - I can copyedit when you are ready. Also have you these sources and if so is there anything worth adding from them? Chidgk1 (talk) 19:46, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no information is available that Forough was socially popular, but the fact that she was the beloved wife of Nasser al-Din Shah probably aroused the jealousy of other wives.Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:53, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

now is Jeyran approved for DYK?Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:59, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the improvements. I would like to look at it a bit more - hope to have time this evening (if you are in Iran I am half an hour behind you by the way). Meanwhile please could you amend the references so that "title" is the original language and "trans-title" is the English translation of the title, and add "lang=fa" (see ref 2 for example).

@Chidgk1: I did not use the original names because it was too long, but I added "lang = fa" for everyone. I also added block quotes for long quotes. I also mentioned the series in production.Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:12, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Johnbod Is it OK to use pic even though we are not certain it is her? Also as the article was created Jan 1 should I move this to the Jan 1 DYK section?

• ALT3 ... that a fake genealogy was created for Jeyran (perhaps pictured), the beloved wife of Naser al-Din Shah of Persia, that connected her to the Sassanids and Ilkhans? Source: "Naser al-Din Shah, who had a great interest in Jeyran; for her satisfaction and the solution of the above problems, orderd a fake genealogy was created for her from the lineage of the Sassanids and Ilkhans; and at the explicit mention of the Shah, Mahd-e Olia, who was opposed to Amir Nizam, remained silent; in this way, the second and third problems on the way to Amir Nizam becoming the crown prince were resolved." Khosrow Motazed, from Forough Al-Saltanah to Anis Al-Dawlah, p. 145-146

Amir Ghandi - I think just the ref titles for you to fill in now - after that which version of the DYK do you favor, or do you have a better idea? Chidgk1 (talk) 19:24, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

@Chidgk1: ALT3 is better in my opinion Because it indicates that Nasser al-Din Shah is the king of Persia, I also completely agree with the use of Jeyran's picture, even though we are not sure whether it is her picture or not.Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:33, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Amir Ghandi Just ref 17 for you to add the title to now. ALT3 or ALT4 or ALT5 below? Or shall I decide?

done.Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:51, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

• ALT4 ... that a lineage from the Sassanids and Ilkhans was faked for Jeyran (perhaps pictured), the beloved wife of Naser al-Din Shah of Persia? Source: Khosrow Motazed, from Forough Al-Saltanah to Anis Al-Dawlah, p. 145-146

@Chidgk1: i agree with ALT3, its look better.Amir Ghandi (talk) 19:51, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

• ALT5 ... that a lineage from the Sassanids and Ilkhans was faked for the beloved wife of Naser al-Din Shah of Persia, Jeyran (perhaps pictured)? Source: Khosrow Motazed, from Forough Al-Saltanah to Anis Al-Dawlah, p. 145-146

Amir Ghandi Oh and I forgot - can you translate the quote that says it is faked so we can add it in the small bit above. Goodnight

@Chidgk1: "Naser al-Din Shah, who had a great interest in Jeyran; for she's satisfaction and the solution of the above problems, orderd a fake genealogy was created for her from the lineage of the Sassanids and Ilkhans; and at the explicit mention of the Shah, Mahd-e Olia, who was opposed to Amir Nizam, remained silent; In this way, the second and third problems on the way to Amir Nizam becoming the crown prince Resolved."Amir Ghandi (talk) 20:11, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

*ALT6 ... that a fake genealogy was created for Jeyran (perhaps pictured), the beloved wife of Naser al-Din Shah of Persia, linking her to the Sassanids and Ilkhans? Source: "Naser al-Din Shah, who had a great interest in Jeyran; for her satisfaction and the solution of the above problems, orderd a fake genealogy was created for her from the lineage of the Sassanids and Ilkhans; and at the explicit mention of the Shah, Mahd-e Olia, who was opposed to Amir Nizam, remained silent; in this way, the second and third problems on the way to Amir Nizam becoming the crown prince were resolved." Khosrow Motazed, from Forough Al-Saltanah to Anis Al-Dawlah, p. 145-146

Amir Ghandi I have shortened it very slightly because the guidelines say shorter is better - hope that is OK for you - if not please suggest. Do you need to do a QPQ or is this your 5th or earlier DYK? Chidgk1 (talk) 07:07, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Chidgk1: earlier one of my other DYN candidate get passed, so now i don't know if i have to do a QPQ nor not.Amir Ghandi

(talk) 07:12, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

You get lifetime total 5 free DYK before you need to do a QPQ. Chidgk1 (talk) 07:18, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Chidgk1: OK. is any particular problem?Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:38, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Amir Ghandi: If this is only your 2nd DYK then no problem. In case you cannot remember how many DYK you have done I am trying to find a tool or easy way to count them. Chidgk1 (talk) 08:23, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Chidgk1: the QPQ counter can be accessed in the toolbox at the upper right of this edit window. Yoninah (talk) 00:25, 17 January 2021 (UTC)