Talk:Joker (character)/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Godzilladude123 (talk · contribs) 12:15, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing the article starting now so bear with me then. We can't have such a classic fictional character to wait for long don't we.

• Misidentified category

Let me start this off by saying that I think the article somewhat should belong in the Language and Literature genre than in Media and Drama.

• Lead

The writing seems to be okay but there are some problems. First the lead doesn't even have any references to begin with. Please fix this immediately.

"Credit for the character's creation is disputed" sounds bland. I think you can do better like making it "often disputed"

"The antithesis of Batman, the Joker is considered by critics his perfect adversary" -> Why is the Joker an antithesis or a perfect adversary to the Batman? Please explain why it is so.

"the Joker has been cited as one of the greatest comic-book villains and fictional characters ever created" -> People may agree or disagree. Put some references to it, or better yet, put a direct evidence to dignify such achievement like putting IGN's or Wizard's lists in the section.

• Character Biography

"a resurrected Todd tries to force Batman to avenge his death by killing the Joker (who enjoys their conflict more than killing Todd)" -> Need expansion. Write what happened after. Did Jason succeed or not? What was Batman's reaction so on so forth.

Joker's appearance in the New 52 should be expanded. Like what his activities were. Also expand the events of what happened in Death of the Family, like what he did to the Bat Family and how it ties to other titles like Catwoman.

• Skills and Equipment

"The Joker is portrayed as skilled in melee combat" -> I remember this article once saying that Joker's cqc skills varies from writer to writer. (This is optional)

Also, try adding more of Joker's iconic tools and weaponry aside from the Jokermobile.

Overall, the article looks great. The rest of the sections are well written and well referenced. Fix the problems above and we may all be set to go.

Responses'

• Misidentified category

Let me start this off by saying that I think the article somewhat should belong in the Language and Literature genre than in Media and Drama.

I just saw the fictional characters section and went with that, it wasn't very clear.

• Lead

The writing seems to be okay but there are some problems. First the lead doesn't even have any references to begin with. Please fix this immediately.

Per WP: LEAD, the lead shouldn't contain references unless material is controversial, as it is a summary of the body text which is where the information is sourced. DWB / Are you a bad enough dude to GA Review The Joker? 18:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

"Credit for the character's creation is disputed" sounds bland. I think you can do better like making it "often disputed"

It's generally accepted that Robinson created him with help from Finger, so it's not really often disputed, it just is disputed since Kane claimed he did it. DWB / Are you a bad enough dude to GA Review The Joker? 18:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

"The antithesis of Batman, the Joker is considered by critics his perfect adversary" -> Why is the Joker an antithesis or a perfect adversary to the Batman? Please explain why it is so.

tried adding something, don't want to over detail it as it is explored in detail in the article. DWB / Are you a bad enough dude to GA Review The Joker? 18:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

"the Joker has been cited as one of the greatest comic-book villains and fictional characters ever created" -> People may agree or disagree. Put some references to it, or better yet, put a direct evidence to dignify such achievement like putting IGN's or Wizard's lists in the section.

It's a summary, it would add bias to the article to pick some bodies to list over one another when the claim is not controversial and widely cited. DWB / Are you a bad enough dude to GA Review The Joker? 18:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

• Character Biography

"a resurrected Todd tries to force Batman to avenge his death by killing the Joker (who enjoys their conflict more than killing Todd)" -> Need expansion. Write what happened after. Did Jason succeed or not? What was Batman's reaction so on so forth.

I expanded it a little, as below, where there is a separate article for a story, it is linked so the readers can follow it for a more in-depth exploration. DWB / Are you a bad enough dude to GA Review The Joker? 18:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Joker's appearance in the New 52 should be expanded. Like what his activities were. Also expand the events of what happened in Death of the Family, like what he did to the Bat Family and how it ties to other titles like Catwoman.

As far as I am aware he doesn't do anything else in the new 52, he is captured, cuts his face off and then disappears until Death of the Family. For the sake of brevity, the section is limited to defining events in the characters history, so I don't think he did anything else since the dawn of the 52. DWB / Are you a bad enough dude to GA Review The Joker? 18:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

• Skills and Equipment

"The Joker is portrayed as skilled in melee combat" -> I remember this article once saying that Joker's cqc skills varies from writer to writer. (This is optional)

The skill seems to be less to do with the Joker and more to do with the skill of who he is fighting, but the character is introduced as someone capable at fighting and this has typically continued.DWB / Are you a bad enough dude to GA Review The Joker? 18:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, try adding more of Joker's iconic tools and weaponry aside from the Jokermobile.

What else is there? I've explored as much as I can in books and websites but haven't seen anything else. DWB / Are you a bad enough dude to GA Review The Joker? 18:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Godzilladude, are you no longer reviewing this? Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:11, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

some notes

I don't want to make any promises or commitments in terms of reviewing this, but I'll post some comments on things that need to change/be improved/ideas. I was looking over the "In other media" section, it reads:

Richard Epcar voiced the Joker in the 2008 fighting game, Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe, and its 2013 sequel, Injustice: Gods Among Us.

Injustice is not a sequel to MKvsDCU, there is no correlation in-universe or from a real-world perspective, despite the focus on the DCU Universe cast and same developers.

I think the article lacks a bit of connection to the real world, outside of fandom and games? Like, what is the Joker's impact to society? Like, there's no mention 2012 Aurora shooting, where the gunman referred supposedly to himself as the Joker. I'm not sure how necessary it is to mention, but it's definitely a real-world perspective that isn't covered. Similarly, some journalists correlate Ledger's death with his part playing the role of the Joker. Supposedly, his his diary and Jack Nicholson] had something to say about that. Again, not sure how much of this would actually improve the article. || Tako (bother me) || 03:15, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I wanted to expand his real world context regarding impact/media references/merchandise, but i have literally expended my resources. I've been unable to find results through google, i've even bought books like A Visual History of the Clown Prince of Crime to get info that wasn't on the net, but I have just been unable to find further information, I assume in part because "joker" is a fairly common term. The Aurora shooting was sketchy even then, saying that police said the shooter had said that which was later questioned. It seems unreliable, and harder to justify when he had the wrong hair color to be claiming that inspiration. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:40, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Review status

Just wanted to clarify the status of this review. I see that on 6 July 2014, Darkwarriorblake updated the GA template on the article talk page to reflect a third nomination. From the discussion above it appears that the original reviewer abandoned the review without confirming that their concerns were resolved (and they haven't edited since May), so we'll call this one "failed" and let the new nomination go forward as number 3. --RL0919 (talk) 16:05, 7 July 2014 (UTC)