Talk:Justin Wilson (racing driver)

Another Justin Wilson

I don't know how important the auto racer Justin Wilson is, but there is another Justin Wilson, a Cajun cookbook author and humourist who deserves a place in Wikipedia. Go see www.justinwilson.com

The driver, to me, deserves the primary disambig. violet/riga (t) 19:18, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Where is he from?

I am unhappy that it says he is from Sheffield, as I am 99.9% sure he is from Rotherham. I cannot find anywhere that says this plainly, so this must be checked by someone else.

In the Q & A bit on his website he says he is from Woodall. It's got a Sheffield post code but it's really east of Sheffield and South of Rotherham. For the sake of clarity I'd suggest leaving it as Sheffield! http://www.justinwilson.co.uk/site.php?section=2&part=read&question=47

He may well have been born in Sheffield, as that is the place with the nearest maternity hospital, but his home village, Woodall, is definitely in the Metropolitan Borough of Rotherham - see Harthill, South Yorkshire (Most Rotherham areas have a Sheffield postcode) Jud 22:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC) Justin was born in Rotherham general hospital and lived in Kimberworth, Rotherham before then moving to Micklebring, Rotherham. The family then moved to Woodhall, Sheffield. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.26.81.242 (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

References

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Reasons for leaving Jaguar

The article only states that he was dropped for financial reasons and ignores the fact he was rather disappointing during his time with the team. I know most articles tend to be slightly kind to the person being described, but I feel that as this is an encyclopedia such information should be included. At the moment the only source I have is rather poor http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:a4cDNJGkbfYJ:www.f1rejects.com/centrale/2003/review/others/index.html+justin+wilson+suzuka+2003&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=37&gl=uk (note: And, worst of all, he was no more impressive in the Jaguar than Pizzonia had been) however looking at the relevant results shows that this was indeed the case. Any thoughts as to what should be added? Spenalzo (talk) 01:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The reason no one has found more credible sources for the information you put forth 7 years ago is because it simply does not exist. He had 5 races for Jaguar, 3 of which ended in mechanical failure, meaning it was at no fault of the driver like an accident or collision would be, while the other two times, he beat Mark Webber once (and got a point) and Webber beat him once. Twirly Pen (Speak ^up) 04:51, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

2009

He seems to be out of a job now, but no word on that anywhere. Just his omission in the NHL driver listing - they have 3 drivers listed in teh Indycar section for 2009 and none is Justin...--Amedeo Felix (talk) 13:35, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Best Finish?

In both the IZOD Indycar series and Champ car series, Wilson is listed as having won several races, but his Best Finishes are listed as 9th and 2nd, respectively. Is this referring to the championship? If so, it needs clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.16.72.6 (talk) 09:10, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Really?

This article states: "a nose cone from Sage Karam's crashed car collided with Wilson's head" Just how many nose cones does a race car have - should be "the." Also, "collided with" doesn't sound right - struck would be better. It also hit his helmet, not his head directly (although I guess it could have penetrated). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.48.16 (talk) 19:22, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, when I wrote it, it was sort of a spur of the moment thing since the crash had happened a few hours earlier. It's been reworded. Zappa24Mati 04:00, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Tallest F1 driver?

in the opening paragraph it says "To date, he is the tallest person to have raced in Formula One" but there is no reference for that. Can either a citation needed tag be addded, or a reference given. 194.28.124.55 (talk) 03:00, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done Zappa24Mati 04:03, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Birthplace

Although commonly misreported as being from Sheffield, Woodall is actually in Rotherham. Some sources are more accurate such as http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2015-08-25/family-tribute-to-justin-wilson/ which correctly say Rotherham. I suppose someone may identify themselves as being from somewhere they weren't techincally born in. Not sure how we deal with these cases. --74.57.221.101 (talk) 17:28, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

74.57.221.101, another editor changed the city of birth from Sheffield to Rotherham.^[1] I decided to revert this edit back to Sheffield based on the following on Wilson's web site at http://www.justinwilson.co.uk/

• "Hailing from Sheffield, England, Wilson began karting at the age of nine..."^{[2] and [3]}
• "Since joining the IndyCar Series in 2008, the driver from Sheffield, England..."^[4]
• "Originally from Sheffield, England, Wilson currently resides in Erie, Colorado, a little over half an hour north of Denver."^[5]
• "A native of Sheffield, England, Wilson recorded seven career Indy car victories..."^[6]

There is also Where is he from? is earlier on this talk page.

In terms of how we deal with these cases. Unfortunately, template:Infobox racing driver is silent on what to use for the birth_place field. I did a quick scan but can't find a earlier discussion for any of the infobox templates where this was brought up. As you noted, some people identify themselves as being from somewhere they weren't born in. We don't know if that was the case with Wilson. --Marc Kupper|talk 19:05, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

In all cases, convention at the F1 WikiProject is to use actual birthplace for the birthplace field. Anything else opens up a can of worms in hundreds of cases. Where a driver is from is another matter, and a subject for the text of the article, with appropriate sources. By all accounts, Wilson's birthplace is Sheffield. Woodall is indeed in Rotherham, but Wilson wasn't born there. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:40, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Tallest F1 driver: untrue claim

While there is indeed a source claiming Wilson was the tallest ever Formula One driver, I have removed this as Hans Joachim Stuck is taller than Wilson. Justin Wilson was 193 cm (6 ft 3 in) tall ([7], [8], [9]). Hans Joachim Stuck is (or at least used to be) 194 cm (6 ft 4 in) tall ([10], [11]). --SpeedKing (talk) 17:21, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Great. Thanks for the sources. Pyrope 18:19, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Justin Wilson (racing driver)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 09:32, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Comments

• " 2003, the Champ Car World Series from 2004 to 2007 ...." you don't link the F1 season to 2003 but you do link seasons to 2004 and 2007. I personally find such easter eggs undesirable full stop, but there's nothing in the GA criteria stopping you doing it. Just be consistent I guess.
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "1998, the International Formula 3000 Championship with Nordic Racing in 2001 and " comma after 2001.
• "then RuSPORT,teams " fix.
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "driver and was able t" replace and with who.
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• " financially in the long-term." delete.
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "Wilson has a younger brother," seems odd to use this tense when Justin is dead, maybe "Wilson's younger brother,"?
  • Yes, have changed to that tense. MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• " at the Worksop services" what are these?
  • Motorway services MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• A lot of sentences starting with Fullerton or Wilson, good use some variation.
  • Tried on this aspect MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "and became the first 16-year-old to win a motor race in the United Kingdom" this needs context. What kind of motor race? An affiliated one? One which is somehow officially recognised?
  • Clarified MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• A few very short sentences makes for choppy reading, consider merging and reworking some to improve the flow rather than an almost CV-based stacatto.
  • Have made changes to this MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• What's a pedal box?
  • Clarified MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "a fully funded and sponsored" seems to be the same?
  • Changed the wording MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• " BRDC Gold Medal, the ERA Club Trophy and the Graham Hill Trophy" are these notable? Should they be linked?
  • Not at the moment since those awards do not have stand-alone articles. MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "due to sponsorship issues" unclear what that means in this context?
  • Financial trouble MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "was rested for two races, Wilson was the team's preferred choice to replace him" rested to be replaced? Sounds unusual.
  • Yes because Yoong had failed to qualify for three races due to violating the 107% rule. MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "The capital was raised through Palmer searching for financial partners;[41] Wilson's father mortgaged the family home" no semi colon, this is an "and" moment. Or a "while".
  • Chosen the latter MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "900 individuals " don't start sentences with numbers.
  • Changed MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "Before the German Grand Prix, " state explicitly this was the 2003 one.
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• Check image captions, fragments don't need full stops.
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• " the Greg Moore Legacy Award that year" again I find it odd that formal titles are part-linked. Is the award notable?
  • Not so sure, but the award is mentioned on Moore's page. MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

That takes me to the "IndyCar Series (2008–2015)" section. I'll stop here for the evening if that's okay and continue tomorrow. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 21:09, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

• " In mid-race," no need for "in".
  • Removed MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "27th-place finish.[84] He finished" repetitive.
  • Changed MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• " For his results during the season" verbose, just say where he finished.
  • Removed MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• " team,[14][17][26] in February,[88] " cite hell, move to end and are three really required?
  • Changed this MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "with 354 accrued" accrued redundant.
  • Removed MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "Having been linked with..." -> "Although linked..."
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "points standings with 183 points" repetitive.
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "21st and advanced fourteen positions to finish seventh" mosnum, consistent words or numbers for comparable figures.
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "In the season's first five races, he finished sixth at the Indy Grand Prix of Alabama." what?
  • Changed the wording MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "his qualifying average dropped from 12.2 in 2013 to 13.11 " is this really significant?
  • Removed MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "ninth in class and 22nd " again, comparable numbers should be formatted the same.
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "Wilson finished tenth and scored one championship point for a 25th " ditto.
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "slowed faster than Wilson, who was following him, could do so." awkward construction.
  • Reworded MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "in Paulerspury, Northamptonshire," probably worth reinforcing that this was back in the UK, presumably his body had to be repatriated.
  • Done MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "could ever find",[19][144][145] " why three cites for one fact?
  • Changed to two MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "soft-spoken and highly analytical. " not referenced while the other traits were.
  • Used a source from ESPN MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "awareness of organ donation" did Wilson donate his organs?
  • Yes it is stated in the first sentence of the third paragraph in the Personality and legacy section MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• Tables could use row and col scopes for MOS:ACCESS. Some do, but some don't...
  • Added some MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
• "p. 073" no need for leading zero.
  • Removed MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

That's about it for a first pass, on hold. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 08:11, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

• • @The Rambling Man: Have made changes where possible and have replied where appropriate. MWright96 (talk) 09:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay, good work, I'm promoting. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 09:39, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:30, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that racing driver Justin Wilson entered the 2003 Formula One World Championship through an investment programme, which was listed on the London Stock Exchange? Source: Wilson the fast-track investment: The Independent & Justin Wilson PLC: GrandPrix.com
  • ALT1:... that racing driver Justin Wilson was given the nickname "BadAss" for being "as fearsome a competitor you could ever find"? Source: Justin Wilson, 1978-2015: motorsport.com
  • ALT2:... that racing driver Justin Wilson was the first 16-year old to win an official motor race in the United Kingdom? Source: Henry Hope‑Frost ‑ IndyCar remembers Justin Wilson: Goodwood Road & Racing & BRDC
  • ALT3:... that in 2001, Justin Wilson was the first British racing driver to win the International Formula 3000 Championship? Source: Formula One: Many investors are able to get little pieces of this driver's action": International Herald Tribune

• Reviewed: Enderby Jackson

Improved to Good Article status by MWright96 (talk). Self-nominated at 10:26, 6 April 2020 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: GA and in time. I had a look a the high percentage results from Earwig's Copyvio tool. No issues. I prefer the first hook, but ALT2 and ALT3 look fine as well. ALT1 is my least preferred option. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:36, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Mention of Sage Karam in the lead

@NorthBySouthBaranof: The fine details as to where the debris came from and how it was launched into Wilson's path are adequately explained in the body of the article. For the purposes of the lead however, all that's relevant and important is that he was struck by debris. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 20:15, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I disagree with you - I think the brief inclusion of two more words (amounting to 17 entire characters of markup) is not excessive detail at all, and removing it from the lede does not strike me as an improvement. It's not as if it's devoting an entire sentence to the issue. Given that it's been in the lede in some varying forms since the accident, you'll need a clear editorial consensus to remove it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:22, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

The fact that it's in the highly visible lead gives it WP:UNDUE weight ("An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject"). His name should not be mentioned unless it is absolutely necessary, which it is not, since you yourself say he cannot control where the debris flies off to. Furthermore, since it involves a living person, it becomes a BLP issue by default and therefore the part mentioning his name should be removed unless a clear consensus forms to restore it. If I had been active on wikipedia in 2015, I would be making these same arguments. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 00:36, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

I think you have something all backward - this is not a "BLP issue." The material is not unsourced, poorly-sourced, or potentially defamatory - it's a simple fact of accident, or accident of fact. I would invite you to open a request for comment if you would like to get broader input - if there's consensus that it doesn't need to be in the lede, then that consensus will prevail. But I think the article is fine how it is. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:50, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Can you at least bother to answer to answer the question as to why it is absolutely necessary to include his name? You're flirting with 3RR now. GhostOfDanGurney (talk)

Also, my comment about WP:UNDUE, please answer that as well instead of reverting. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 00:57, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

It's an unambiguous historical fact of the accident, it's clearly relevant to secondary sources exploring the ramifications of the accident, and it's not undue to simply mention the name - I agree with you that any further extensive discussion of the crash would be undue for the lede. As for your absolutely necessary construction, I simply disagree with you - there is no such requirement, even if I was to agree that it is not absolutely necessary, that does not justify unilateral removal of well-sourced statements which might merely be necessary. Again, I invite you to open an RFC; if there's a consensus that it doesn't belong in the lede, then I shall of course yield to that consensus. But right now, a WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS clearly exists for material which has been in the article, unchallenged, for more than half a decade. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:06, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

RFC on lead section

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus was reached to not include Sage Karam's name in the lead, leaving it only in the main article body. Fieari (talk) 00:17, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

---

Should this article say in the lead that it was Sage Karam's car specifically that the debris that struck Wilson came off of? [12] GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 02:10, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

• I am responding to this RfC as someone who knows next to nothing about racing other than what I've read in this article. From my perspective, the article is about Justin Wilson. As such, mentioning the driver whose debris killed him would only be relevant if that driver was considered to be at fault-- that is, if he had murdered him or been negligent or otherwise actively caused Justin's death... but from what I can tell, it's not that the other driver actively caused Justin's death, but simply that racing is an extremely dangerous sport and this is one of the hazards of racing. The information in detail is available in the article, but emphasizing the other driver's name puts WP:UNDUE weight on this fact. He wasn't murdered, he died in the regular course of the dangerous sport. I would say do not include the name in the lead, but certainly keep it in the main body of the article. Otherwise, we're implying fault, and that's just not the case here. Fieari (talk) 07:13, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
• No. I was about to detail the reasoning of my suggestion but I see Fieari beat me to it. So, now, I can only point to it. We should not imply guilt. -The Gnome (talk) 08:19, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
  • I would strongly disagree we are impling fault. The lead makes it clear that Wilson was killed by flying debris. The only way a reader could reach the conclusion that we are impling fault is if the reader was under the illusion that Karam had control of where the debris was headed - which he didn't. SSSB (talk) 08:21, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

• No. It's not relevant to the lead whose debris it was. Per Fieari, if Karam had been negligent or otherwise at fault, then perhaps. It's relevant to the description in the article body of the accident itself, but not to the lead. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:56, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

• No - Per above reasoning. As it stands, the lede gives the impression of fault on the part of Karam regarding the death of Wilson. No issue with this being discussed in relevant section of the body. PraiseVivec (talk) 14:54, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

• No - We should err on the side of caution when it comes to such a potential WP:BLP issue. It's also a relatively trivial detail to include in the lede. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 08:35, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

• No - I don’t agree with the BLP reason, but it does not belong in lead per guidance of WP:LEAD as the other person just is not a major part of that section or the story. The WEIGHT of coverage is mostly “debris” and “head injury”, so just follow the RS and don’t lead with other names. My own view is that debris and head impact are also the parts that mattered most. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:11, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

• No - as I explained above, I compelety reject the argument that mentioning Karam implies guilt. However, the lead should limit its self to the major talking points of the article. Whose debris it was is not a major talking point (as no-one was found to be at fault). SSSB (talk) 14:42, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

• I would have no problem with a WP:SNOW closure here - there's a pretty clear emerging consensus to omit Karam's name from the lede, and thus I withdraw my objection to the change. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:22, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

• No - It is not relevant what cars debris hit him, Sage was not at fault.Tepkunset (talk) 14:32, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.