Talk:Kapo

Etymology

Wow, what is going on here? First there is no word "Lagerkapo" in the German language. This part of the article is just wrong. But Kameradschaftspolizist and therefore Kapo is very likely. That form of abbreviation was also used in Kapitänleutnant as Kaleu for the rank in the German navy during the second world war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:9540:2604:342B:E8C8:980A:BBE5 (talk) 18:24, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree (native German speaker). There is no word "Lagercapo" in use in German. This sentence should be deleted. If such a term occurs in some source, it was probably formed after "Kapo" was in widespread use - the "Lagerkapo" ("k", not "c") is the kapo of the camp (=Lager).

This guy says the name comes from Kamppolizei. --Gbleem 08:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to know his sources...--Willem Huberts 09:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Bullshit. German for Camp is 'Lager', not 'Kamp'. `'mikkanarxi 03:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Kameradenpolizei is probably the correct origin of the word (contracted as Kapo as Nationalsozialismus is contracted in Nazi). Search engines return many occurences of that work too and Capo looks more like a backward etymology to me. --JCDM 0:44, 12 Dec 2006 (CET)

I seriously doubt Nazis would allow an Italian word. Despite being allies, they despised Italians. mikkanarxi 03:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It is of Italian origin, but was used in the slang of South German craftspeople. In a quick search I found it in a job offer for a Vorarbeiter. --84.153.60.215 (talk) 17:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Kameradenpolizei is most certainly not the correct origin for the word kapo. The source for kapo must be found in whether the French word caporal, whether the Italian word capo, the latter meaning chief, supervisor, head. Sources to be found in: Eugen Kogon, The SS-state, first published in Germany, 1959. I used the Dutch translation: Eugen Kogon, De SS-staat: het systeem der Duitse concentratiekampen. Paris, Amsterdam, 1968, p. 86. Another Dutch historian states that the term kapo originates from the concentration camp Dachau and that Italian labourers introduced it in the early nineteen thirties when they were employed when building roads in the south of Germany. dr. L. de Jong, Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden in de Tweede Wereldoorlog, deel 8, gevangenen en gedeporteerden, eerste helft. Staatsuitgeverij, 's-Gravenhage, 1978, p. 481. The hoax that it originates from the non-existant German word Kameradenpolizei can be found evereywhere on the Internet, therefore it shows up in many search engines - but by now we all know what that means.--Willem Huberts 06:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Eugen Kogon is wrong. It has nothing to do with capo or caporal. It's simply Konzentrazionslager Arbeit POlizei (concentration camp work police). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.148.239.49 (talk) 06:35, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Primo Levi wrote in one of his books about the war that it came from Kamaredenpolizei. I'd say that's a pretty good source, since he experienced the horror first-hand. --Mamour 16:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I doubt in a Lager he was taught etymology. - Altenmann >t 19:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I always heard that it came from a mafia "rank". See Capodecina. 138.162.128.53 (talk) 13:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Nope. It is Italian "head". - Altenmann >t 19:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Oddly, the Yiddish word for "head" has not been suggested: "קאָפּ" / "kop". Jyg (talk) 22:02, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

In school in the Netherlands in the 1970s and '80s I was told by several history teachers that the word 'kapo' is a contraction of 'KampfPolizei', 'Camp Police'. While clearly incorrect as the word 'Kampf' doesn't mean 'camp' in German but 'battle', the word 'kamp' in Dutch does mean 'camp'. The word 'kapo' may thus well have been derived individually from different sources by different people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.121.231 (talk) 06:02, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Konzentrazionslager Arbeitpolizei

I noted here that kapo stands for Konzentrazionslager ArbeitPOlizei but the person who is in charge here deleted it. I also noted that the bs about kapos being killed and replaced is a confusion with Sonderkommandos. I don't remember anywhere reading about kapos being killed and replaced regularly. Why would they be? They were great henchmen for the SS and were vital for supervising work and running the camp day to day. Who is the admin here? This is very amateurish. 17 December, 2009

""Killed and replaced" piece removed. Please provide convincing references about "Arbeit Polizei". - Altenmann >t 22:49, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Source for acronym: The Lie of Ulysses, 1950, Paul Rassinier. You may not like the source but it is the most reliable, non-vitriolic account of the concentration camp system from a former inmate at Buchenwald and Dora. 17 December 2009

Rassinier writes: "I suggest another explanation...". And nothing else. He is no expert in linguistics and presents no evidence to support his opinion. Nobody seem to support his suggestion. By the way, his knowledge of German is poor: the correct German word construction would be "Arbeitspolizei". By the way, "kapo" is a regular German word. Don't tell me it originated in Nazi camps and still survives. - Altenmann >t 18:18, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

This is what Rassinier writes: "From that day on, every morning and every evening we filed across the camp to get to the Steinbruch where we picked up a stone whose weight was what our strength could manage. We dragged it back to the camp where gangs broke it up for street pavement. Then we went back to the Block. This work was light, particularly in comparison with that of the quarry workers who excavated the stone under the insults and the blows of the Kapos, the abbreviation for Konzentrationslager Arbeitpolizei, or police in control of labor." He mentions that again later in the book with the same explanation. It makes a lot more sense than the other sources that are mentioned here first because it describes perfectly the nature of the kapo function and second because of the tendency of militaries, jail systems and other large organizations to have their own in-house nomenclature and terms which are many times abbreviation of official terms. That also explains the spelling with 'k', which could not be explained from the French/Italian origin which is noted in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.102.39.206 (talk) 22:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Self-haters

I know that kapo is used to describe self-haters, or alleged self-haters, but is the best evidence of that one personal blog, as at the end of the lede currently? I think we should come up with a better citation.BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:29, 6 March 2009 (UTC) How about: http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=30762 ? BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I fail to see how this ref say something about self-haters. The mentioned comparison comes closer to the idea of "renegade", or "race traitor". - 7-bubёn >t 16:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Within the Jewish community, the term is typically associated with "collaborator" or torturer of his own ilk, not self-hater. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.148.122.108 (talk) 12:59, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

There is a sentence with bad citation form: "Though kapos generally had a bad reputation, many suffered guilt about their actions, both at the time and after the war, as revealed in a book about Jewish kapos.[7]" It should probably end with "...after the war.[7]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8C3:4280:3140:E95F:429:E8D6:4BDB (talk) 18:51, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Kapo or capo?

The caption for the Hans Wolf image describes him as a "capo". Is this correct, or should it be changed to "kapo" for consistency? --OGoncho (talk) 23:30, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Merge

Merged with the larger article Prisoner functionary. A discussion of the merge can be found on that article's talk page. Dionysodorus (talk) 23:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

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Disambiguation

While I appreciate that Kapo (concentration camp) is unsatisfactorary because there were also kapos in extermination camps, the current name (Kapo (Holocaust)) is no better, because there were kapos in concentration camps before the war and the "Holocaust" started in 1941 (also it's debateable whether all of the concentration camps can be encompassed in the "Holocaust", depending on the definition you use). However, it seems to me based on Google searches that this is likely the primary topic for the term and if no one objects I will carry out that move. (t · c) buidhe 20:10, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I see your point about "Holocaust" being inaccurate, but is your suggestion to move the article back to "concentration camp"? I think it would be best to come up with a more satisfactory parenthetical (maybe "Nazi Germany"?) but I won't quibble if you wanna move it back. Botterweg14 (talk) 21:04, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I was suggesting moving this article to Kapo and Kapo -> Kapo (disambiguation). (t · c) buidhe 21:15, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I see! Yes, that definitely sounds like the best solution. Botterweg14 (talk) 21:54, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Merger from Prisoner functionary

The two articles (this one and Prisoner functionary seem to cover exactly the same subject, therefore I propose their merger. The discussion is located on the the talk page of the other article. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 19:13, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Eugen Țurcanu

I would recommend linking Eugen Țurcanu and Pitești Prison under the "See also" section. Between 1949 and 1951, Turcanu, an inmate himself, formed a group of inmates at Pitești Prison to obtain information and police the ideological beliefs of the prison population, using torture and deadly force. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8080:5101:6A00:1C6D:F9BE:77E1:568C (talk) 18:17, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

zionism

it is kind of a pov phrasing "used for those deemed insufficiently supportive of Israel". I have only seen the term used for Jewish pro-palestinians or anti-zionists "used for anti-zionists Jews" would be more accurate. MoshiachNow (talk) 06:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

File:Bundesarchiv Bild 101III-Duerr-054-17, Lettland, KZ Salaspils, jüdischer Lagerpolizist.jpg

A camp policeman at Salaspils concentration camp with an armband saying "Chief Jewish Camp Policeman"

Hi @Altenmann, I was curious about this, because it's a remarkable case of citogenesis if that isn't really a picture of a kapo, such as this Times of Israel article[1], so I looked up the archive entry for this image[2] and it lists the "Armbinde "Oberster Jüd[ischer]. Lager-Poli[zist]";" or the L.P. armband, or basically, the Jewish camp police armband. I do not actually know the answer, but how is or is this different? Andre🚐 00:52, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

There is much confusion in this respect. I started writing Prisoner functionaries article to untangle this confusion. Now I am collecting data to write up Lagerpolizei. For a quick ref you may look here. --Altenmann >talk 01:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. Thanks. Be sure to add this to citogenesisWikipedia:List of citogenesis incidents when you're done untangling it. Andre🚐 01:07, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. It was added in 2013 by @Cramyourspam. [3] He replaced the position of another image that was there.[4] Which was later removed, I didn't find when. How about this image: File:Oberkapo - Armbinde.jpg? looks like we'll need oberkapo also Andre🚐 01:18, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

<sigh> that's the probblem with wikipedia that it is written mostly by well-meaning non-experts. The concept of Nazi concentration camps as seen by an average layman conflates many things differences in which seem unimportant. After all, both Kapos and Lagerpolizei were brutal collaborators, so who cares how they were titled. Just the same, who cares that Nazi Konzentrationslager and Arbeitslager (labor camps) were rather different things, under different command, of which situation Heinrich Himmler was not very happy. Before the idea of Endlösung was crystallized the Jews were mostly robbed, displaced into ghettos and placed into labor camps. It is well-known subject that in the Nazi ghettos there was Jewish self-management (Judenrat, complete with Jüdische Ghetto-Polizei. It is a less known subject that early Jewish Arbeitslager also had self-management (Lagerrat), as well as Jüdische Lagerpolizei (Jewish camp police). This is far not the first time I have to fill a lacuna in Wikipedia in areas way far from my professional knowledge, both in ye olden times and more recently. --Altenmann >talk 07:29, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

It's an impressive Wiki-resume, and thank you sincerely and non-sarcastically for the history lesson. I agree, they are different, and sometimes differences are important. I found a mention of the Herzogenbusch in Nikolaus Wachsmann where he talks about the Judischer Ordnungdienst, but it looks like that term was really used for the ghetto police not the camp police, do you think it's an error? I guess could be used for both? Andre🚐 07:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

<second, longer sigh> I will look at it. Now I am in the misdt of untangling the mess created by a well-meaning smartass, who killed the disambig Jewish ghetto (restored). --Altenmann >talk 08:19, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Looks like it was done by a primarily Chinese editor in 2012. Innocent mistake, we assume. Andre🚐 08:22, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

As I recall, there is no clear differentiation between the Jewish ghetto / quarter in German, as both are jüdischer Wohnbezirk with no indication of whether it's forcible. I also thought its already differentiated in English by using the name "ghettos under Nazi". So I removed the disambig page. If this created confusion, of course, it's better we clean it up and differentiate. WWbread (Open Your Mouth?) 09:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, the articles Jewish ghettos in Europe and Jewish quarter (diaspora) must be "unforked", being written into Wikipedia without reading Wikipedia. --Altenmann >talk 09:17, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that kind of fuzzy overlap happens a lot. But, some Jewish quarters in Europe are just Jewish quarters and weren't ever actually ghettos, right? Like the Jewish quarter in Paris was not a ghetto but the one in Rome was. Andre🚐 09:26, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, they were quarters and ghettos not just quarters, unlike, say Chinese Quarter. This is a review of a book which perfectly traces the history of the term "ghetto". Someone has really incorporate it into Wikipedia. --Altenmann >talk 09:37, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll add to my reading list. I read this article by Schwartz and really liked it. Andre🚐 09:39, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

While the terms "judenrat" and "Judischer Ordnungsdienst" was commonly associated with ghettos, the terms also applied to Jewish communities before their forcible ghettoization. Unfortunately I failed (lazy) to figure out whether Wachsmann used the term JOD officially used in Kamp Vught or it was a generic Ordnungsdienst (OD) term. But it seems yes. I saw this term used in Kamp Westerbork. --Altenmann >talk 09:33, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense. There seems to also have been Jewish camp police at DP camps, but not mentioned in that article at all, but it's in the Brenner book Andre🚐 09:37, 12 October 2024 (UTC)