Talk:Kazakh Museum of Folk Musical Instruments

Requested move 13 November 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move. This does appear to be the English common name for the museum. (non-admin closure) JudgeRM (talk to me) 21:10, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

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Kazakhstan National Museum of Instruments → Kazakh Museum of Folk Musical Instruments – The name of museum is wrong. It is actually called Kazakh Museum of Folk Musical Instruments. Shadowzpaev (talk) 20:56, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

• I've requested a histmerge which should be performed first for now. Please do not copy-paste article content across multiple titles. — Andy W. (talk) 21:18, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support per nomination. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:54, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I get over 5000 relevant ghits for the current name and only one for the proposed name. Evidence that the proposal is correct? It seems to be either a translation or (less likely in view of Google results) an official name, and in either case it's irrelevant. Andrewa (talk) 15:38, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

The museum's own English-language website specifies its name as Kazakh Museum of Folk Musical Instruments. Another website, "Explore Kazakhstan", also indicates Kazakh Museum of Folk Musical Instruments. Furthermore, The Lonely Planet website gives its name as Kazakh Museum of Folk Musical Instruments. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 21:49, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Oops, my bad, I must have done the wrong search on the proposed name... I normally give the search URLs to allow people to check me but for some reason didn't this time. I now get 1150 ghits on the proposed name. That's better.

But that's significantly less than for the current name. The official name doesn't count for much, nor does the fact that two of those thousands of pages use the official name... that's not surprising at all. Andrewa (talk) 05:48, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

1) @Andrewa. Putting the "wrong search" misunderstanding you mentioned aside, we should note the history of this article. Until November 14, there were two competing articles on this subject, each of which consisted of somewhat different form and content. A merge of the two was requested and the one titled Kazakh Museum of Folk Musical Instruments was deleted. This remaining title was created in April 2012, but we have no current indication of the deleted title's date of creation because a request to merge the two articles' revision history was rejected. Perhaps the decision to delete was made on the basis of article seniority, or perhaps on the basis of their respective google hits, but it should be noted that the main title headers of English Wikipedia entries frequently influence the form in which such entries are subsequently googled as well as the prevalence of such Wikipedia forms across the Internet.
2) The current title is based on a transposed version of the museum's Russian name, Muzej Narodnych Muzykalnych lnstrumentov Kazachstana [Museum of Kazakhstan's National Musical Instruments], as given in the remaining article's lead sentence which adds the words, "variously translated". Whether the deleted version contained the Kazakh version cannot be determined without a restoration of that article's text. However, after glancing at the websites of other museums in countries which use languages other than English, it appears that deference is, indeed, given to the museum's "official" English-language form, as it appears on such museum's own English-language website, rather than to differing forms which may be found across the search spectrum. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 12:31, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

1) If you wish to rediscuss the rights and wrongs of these previous decisions here, the answer is no.

2) What the museum is called in other languages, whether in other Wikipedias or elsewhere, is irrelevant. The topic has significant coverage in English sources, and so we refer to those (only) in choosing our title. That is a well-established policy, and while consensus can change I see absolutely no case above for a change or exception to it. Andrewa (talk) 17:11, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

1) Since article talk pages are expected to also serve as historical repositories of the related article's progress, growth and transitional modification, the previously-noted background of related actions was provided as a simple introduction to this matter for any potential current contributors to this discussion as well as for future researchers (if any) who may decide to initiate a review.
2) The sole other language quoted was Russian, in the context of presenting an English-language transliteration (as well as translation) of the museum's Russian name. Furthermore, no "change or exception" to "significant coverage in English sources" is being requested nor would ever need to be requested. In fact, it would seem that such sources as the above-submitted and linked "Explore Kazakhstan" travel website, the Lonely Planet website and, especially, the museum's own English-language website, have already provided convincing evidence of the form in which the museum's name should appear in English.
3) Finally, given that the Wikipedia entry which bears the museum's alternatively-indicated name as its main title header has been visible since April 2012, it is to be expected, considering Wikipedia's very high presence on the Internet, that the form of its article headers would be widely copied and distributed. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 07:18, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Kazakhstan —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 07:18, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

None of this appears to address the issues. It raises an interesting point in claiming that Wikipedia may have affected English usage, but if so, we just have to go with usage as it is now. To try to separate out the Wikipedia-affected uses is both impossible, and pointless anyway. Andrewa (talk) 12:13, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support: per WP:COMMONNAME (I get 222,000 hits for Folk while only 105,000 for National), it also appears to be the official name in English (see official website here), various other reliable tourism websites seem to prefer folk to national. Ebonelm (talk) 21:10, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Not only does it meet with WP:COMMONNAME, it's an accurate translation of the name as it's the museum of folk instruments of Kazakhstan specifically. I don't think you'll find any Hammond organs there. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:34, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.