Talk:Keir Mather

Any reliable sources that can really tell that Mather was born in 29th January, 1998?

An IP user 85.255.234.39 added it in Special:diff/1166412159, but I can only find a Twitter tweet that really mentioned his birth month (still no exact date at all, although I know that a Twitter tweet is not a reliable source), while other (seems to be) reliable sources only mentioned his birth year. Sanmosa _Outdia 11:34, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I've edited the article to include his birth year. But I don't think I can find a RS which has his precise birthday. GnocchiFan (talk) 11:53, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@GnocchiFan: It seems that the 'January claim' is an affection of vandalism, anyway thanks a lot. However, would it be a bit better to write something like '1998 (age 25 as of July 2023)' or '1998 (age 25 as of 2023)' than the current '1998 (age 25)'? Sanmosa _Outdia 13:32, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to this, or having a hidden note to this effect. I just didn't think we should be having differing years in the article when we know his year of birth is 1998. GnocchiFan (talk) 13:45, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Is there any reliable source which gives his birth year as 1998, rather than saying he is currently 25? From the fact that he is 25 today we only know he was born in 1998 or 1997 - he could have had his 25th birthday earlier this year, or could have his 26th birthday later this year. PamD 13:48, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@PamD: A lot. At least the BBC News source has already mentioned that. Sanmosa _Outdia 13:50, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

So if you have a reliable source, please add it to the article. PamD 14:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I emailed to ask him, and he replied to confirm that he was born on 29th January. Soggy Wombat (talk) 16:18, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Someone beat me to the revert which I was about to make, but to continue the conversation you're having in the edit summaries: Nobody is saying you've faked this email, but it's vital that sources are verifiable, and your email exchange with his office is not a source that someone else can access and verify. This is especially important in biographies of living persons EditorInTheRye (talk) 18:25, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @EditorInTheRye, that is exactly my thinking too. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:51, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course it's verifiable. Anybody can easily do what I did, which was to contact his office by email and ask. I was going out of my way to be helpful by asking for information about his date of birth, so that the information could be helpfully and usefully added to the Wikipedia article. I am completely at a loss to understand why you think that the information is not verifiable. If you are going to vandalise my edits to the article by removing the information, I don't know why I bother. Soggy Wombat (talk) 21:28, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Was he educated at Hymers College?

The currnet version of this article says He was educated at Hymers College ... but no source is cited.

I have posted a request for reliable sources at Talk:Hymers College#Keir_Mather_MP. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:51, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl: I think I have deleted that sentence already? Sanmosa _Outdia 13:56, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sanmosa: it's in the version I linked: Special:PermaLink/1166427333. The next edit[1] was when you removed it.

It was probably a good idea to remove an uncited assertion from a BLP, but it would still be good to check this. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:03, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I know what you mean, and I have never thought of opposing this request at all. I just feel that Mather's article is really very vulnerable to all sorts of vandalism at this moment. Sanmosa _Outdia 14:08, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Judging from the Wadham College Gazette cited which lists him graduating, the equivalent 3 or 4 years earlier probably listed him as a new UG with his school ... but I couldn't work out how to get at that edition. PamD 14:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Wadham College Gazette 2016 p.60 says he was previously at South Hunsley School & Sixth Form College. See here: https://admin.wadham.ox.ac.uk/media/documents/Wadham_Gazette_2016.pdf RhonwenSayer (talk) 16:17, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Added PamD 16:43, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I still can't find any evidence he was at Hymer's college. This has re-appeared in the current version? RhonwenSayer (talk) 21:58, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I had a look at the online publically available Hymers College archives and can't find any evidence he was at Hymers, though it's not definitive. I don't think the current article that cited is a reliable source. It's like they got their information from this Wiki article in the first place. Gk007 (talk) 08:46, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Listed in the alumni section of the Old Hymerians webpage which suggests this source is accurate. Oxonwiki (talk) 09:24, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

One of the media outlets that reported this has subsequently issued a retraction, stating that their initial reports were untrue. In keeping with Wikipedia policy about reliable sources in relation to articles about living people, I have removed the statement until it is confirmed by several independent, reliable sources. Dn9ahx (talk) 16:32, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

He attended Hymers Junior. I went there with him! I think he got a bursary for it, but he went to South Hunsley fComp or Secondary.

Also, I know it's not a proper source by it's on Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02xiVqhF5i9QriV3VUoNxsoJtMVEqPBhNb9RELXZNkjHHb1Gi85N2bnUbrpijMD8scl&id=50730671679 AlanDavidson76 (talk) 22:13, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

It appears Labour comms people just lied to them to force a retraction even though it was true! https://evolvepolitics.com/exclusive-new-labour-mp-keir-mathers-comms-team-have-been-desperately-trying-to-hide-his-private-school-education/ AlanDavidson76 (talk) 19:28, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

“There once circulated a photo of Mather, aged four, grinning in his prep school uniform. He was even wearing a cap.

”Mather insisted he had only attended for a short time before moving to a state school, and joked that he would have to bury the photo if he ever became a Labour MP. I haven’t seen it since.”

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/keir-mather-labour-youngest-mp-oxford-b1096361.html 2A00:23C7:DA8F:6801:D1FC:7F93:4834:AE3D (talk) 10:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Adding extra contents for Mather?

Should we add Mather's experiences like joining the youth parliament and having set up a Labour group himself in childhood, as well as his namesake (origin of his name)? Sanmosa _Outdia 13:54, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sanmosa If it's reliably sourced, then yes. PamD 14:14, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

OK then I'll add it. (At least) mentioned in the BBC source. Sanmosa _Outdia 14:15, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Something about Johnny Mercer's comments (or insults) on Keir Mather

So the question I want to raise here is that whether Johnny Mercer's comments (or insults) on Keir Mather (and the responses of members of Labour Party) should be mentioned in this article, because I am really not sure that if it is appropriate enough for me to do so (and please don't tell me prerequisites like 'reliably sourced', as I do have reliable sources to write that if I am really going to write it). Sanmosa _Outdia 12:55, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure to be honest. I personally feel like they're probably notable, especially as the article mentions him being the Baby of the House, it seems like it would naturally flow. But I can see why it may come across as a little newsy and recentist to some. GnocchiFan (talk) 14:34, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I think so. Mather has gotten some (rather unfair) criticism in recent days due to his age. That should probably be mentioned somewhere. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I've added some comments now, I hope it's appropriate enough. Wasn't too sure how much to elaborate on what Mercer said, or has said subsequently, so I only quoted the main Inbetweeners line. GnocchiFan (talk) 17:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

It's been removed now with the justification "too much personal commentary". I'd expect it to be personal given it's a biography, but I suppose not. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty, no, I removed it with this edit summary: too much unsupported personal commentary and the HuffPost is not agreed to be a reliable source for politics per WP:RSP.

This is a BLP related issue, and WP:BLP demands that Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.

The unsupported personal commentary that I was calling out was In reference to Mather's age and a noughties-era coming-of-age sitcom featuring teenage schoolchildren, which were the personal commentary of the editor who added them, and not from the cited source. In effect, using Wiki's voice to assert something that is unsourced.

And for the rest, it was poorly sourced per WP:RSP. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I sincerely do not know what you are talking about. It used The Guardian for that claim, not HuffPost. This one, which backs it up. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 19:39, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty, look at my edit again. Do you see what is between the "<ref>" and "</ref>" tags in the chunk I removed? It is a cite of a HuffPost web page, and nothing else. That was the only cited ref for that content. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:00, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

My bad, I did not realise HuffPost was unreliable for this context. This was mentioned in the Guardian cite which followed, so I have used that. The refernce to age is mentioned in the Guardian cite ("after he compared Labour’s new 25-year-old MP to a character from the teen sitcom The Inbetweeners" in The Guardian's voice, combined with Starmer's quote, seem clear to me). GnocchiFan (talk) 20:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@GnocchiFan, thanks for sorting out the reference, but there are still problems with your personal synth about what Mercer meant by it. The Guardian doesn't say it was "In reference to Mather's age", and Mercer denied that himself in the Sky News interview from which the quote comes. Also, as The Guardian, and other reliable sources, give Mercer's response to the criticism of his remarks, then, per WP:BLP, they should also be included in the article too. You need to remember that Wiki policy demands neutrality in its articles, and that they are not to be used for pushing a party-political agenda. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't agree what I said was synth: all the news sources (right and left) make it clear this was perceived to be a slight against his age. I am no more pushing a party-political agenda than The Times or The Telegraph sources I've also included – neither of which is exactly sympathetic to Labour.

Also, nobody is stopping you from adding Mercer's rebuttal. It would take you less time to add that in the article than rant about its exclusion on this talk page. GnocchiFan (talk) 20:46, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@GnocchiFan, you put it in Wiki's voice as if it was an incontrovertible fact, that is the problem. You didn't say it was perceived that wy by some sources even though Mercer denied it. He actually said "age doesn't matter" (at about 1:37 in the video here).

BLP-related content needs to be balanced, and the onus is on the editor adding content. If content is contested it may be removed and should not be restored unless fixed or without consensus - see WP:BLPRESTORE. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:05, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I've tried to reword this to make it clear that Mercer denies this and address your concerns. I added this back to the article by mistake, but only because I thought your main issue was with the HuffPost sourcing which I fixed. But please, do not accuse me of being a Labour propagandist. My views on Starmer's Labour Party are really not of your concern, but for the record they're definitely not 100% favourable. – GnocchiFan (talk) 21:13, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@GnocchiFan, it's looking better now, thanks. Sorry you misunderstood my remark about Wiki's demand for neutrality, but I wasn't accusing you personally, but the news outlet you were using often leads to this type of imbalance. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't see how adding a HuffPost source means you're pushing a "party-political agenda". Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty, please clarify what you don't see. Give quotes perhaps, I can't see how you drew that conclusion. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Hymers and FB

I have replaced the fact that he attended Hymers College. Facebook is "generally unreliable" according to WP:RSNP, but not banned from all use. Looking at that archived FB post, there are several possibilities:

1. It is by a different Keir A. Mather: it's surprising that he hasn't cropped up in any other mistaken identity scenarios
2. Someone took the trouble, in January 2022, to impersonate a future candidate to create this post to make it appear that he was privately educated
3. There are ways to fake the date of a FB post, and this was created since he became a parliamentary candidate /MP to embarrass him
4. The MP is not an Old Hymerian but claimed fraudulently to be one
5. The MP is an Old Hymerian.

I don't see that any but the last is plausible, so I think FB here is Reliable. PamD 05:49, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/keir-mather-labour-youngest-mp-oxford-b1096361.html# Oxonwiki (talk) 08:59, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Evening Standard article which confirms Mather was privately educated. Oxonwiki (talk) 09:00, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it complements/confirms the FB sourcing, so I've added it. FB is the only source which names the school. PamD 09:44, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@PamD, yes, WP:RSP says Facebook is "generally unreliable" and qualifies that at WP:GUNREL saying such sources "should never be used for information about a living person". -- DeFacto (talk). 18:17, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@DeFacto But "The source may still be used for uncontroversial self-descriptions, and self-published or user-generated content authored by established subject-matter experts is also acceptable." I think that we can take Keir Mather as an "established subject-matter expert" about his own schooling. I won't edit war, but I think you are wrong here. PamD 20:35, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@PamD, how can we be sure who wrote that and how can we be sure they actually went to that school? Why do we suppose that mainstream RSes haven't covered this story? They aren't usually shy in trying to stir a controversy, especially given Labour's stance on school fees. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:54, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@DeFacto So which of the 5 scenarios I outlined above strikes you as plausible? PamD 20:57, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@PamD, I'd say wait for reliable secondary sources to interpret it, that's not our role. Whoever the FB author was they do not confirm themselves as being former students of the school. Why do you think the RSes haven't covered this? -- DeFacto (talk). 21:09, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

It's by a "Keir A. Mather". Why somebody would lie about someone not even an MP yet I don't know. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:00, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

@Tim O'Doherty, lie? -- DeFacto (talk). 21:11, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Mather got asked about this directly in an interview with The Times. He claims to have gone to Froebel House School, a private school, but never Hymers: [2] ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 22:27, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

In case the archive link doesn't work here's one to the original article: [3]. Do note that it's behind a paywall. ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 22:29, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Signature

I'm not sure why it's in the article, but Tim O'Doherty seems to think there's no problem with it. What do others think:

1. Are we happy to include an image of this person's signature in the article?
2. In what way is it directly relevant to the article?
3. If we choose to keep it, should it be reliably sourced to a secondary source as with everything else in a BLP?

-- DeFacto (talk). 14:49, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Signatures of living persons, although only an essay, seems to lean in favour of not including it. If he'd added his signature to an election leaflet, or published it in some other public way, that would be different; a letter to a minister looks like an unpublished primary source, possibly copyright. I don't think the signature should be included. PamD 16:55, 11 August 2023 (UTC) OK, checking the image data, the source isn't so much "Signature on a letter to a minister", but "Signature on a letter to a minister which is reproduced in a post by Mather on Facebook in what looks like an election flyer". Makes a world of difference. I'm still not sure it's particularly useful or relevant to include it (are we hoping for a graphologist's view on it?), but he seems to have published it himself so we're OK to do so. PamD 17:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)