Talk:Kel-Tec P-3AT

I wonder if the 'comparable' statement is no longer apropos

In Feb of 2008, Ruger released Ruger_LCP very similar weapon. Is the statement In a Guns & Ammo review, Wiley Clapp said, "Ingenuity is often nothing more than a combination of existing principles applied in unique ways. Kel-Tec's new P-3AT has no single feature that is not established in modern pistol design, yet it has no competition in its niche." still to be considered valid?

I mean to say that while the statement was accurate when it was said, I'm thinking that perhaps it is no longer so.

--Thistledowne (talk) 16:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it's now important as a historical document, and so the date needs to stay prominent. The Ruger_LCP is generally considered to be a copy of the Kel-tec, and while it now outsells the 3AT, they will never wear that design nor ingenuity crown. Because there is no graceful way to explain that, one might be tempted to simply delete the statement. Yet that seems even less graceful (by what it obscures)...Or "facts over truth."
--68.127.80.89 (talk) 05:40, 12 September 2013 (UTC)Doug Bashford

The designation "Double Action Only" is incorrect. The P-3AT employs a "Pre-Set Hammer".

According to Wikipedia's own description of "Double Action" (look up that page which explains the other actions too), DAO is incorrect. Rather, the Kel-Tec P-3AT employs a "Pre-Set Hammer", in which operating the slide places the hammer in a pre-set position. The trigger THEN, and only then, operates in a double-action mode. Unlike a DAO (double-action-only), without prior operation of the slide (the pre-set action), the trigger does nothing. A true double-action semi-auto cocks and releases the hammer even when the slide has not been operated.

As long as the gun is operating in semi-automatic fashion, the slide will continue to pre-set the hammer, allowing the trigger to operate in double-action mode. But again unlike a DAO (this is a safety feature): the slide must be manually operated at least once regardless of the loaded state to pre-set the hammer the first time, or the gun will be inert. So it is not mechanically possible, as it is with a DAO, to re-try firing a round that has failed to fire; the only effective action is to eject the round (which operates the slide so that the hammer is re-set again), and you are back in normal operation.

-- Jane Q. Public (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:53, 2 November 2008 (UTC).

All of that is correct, except the P3AT is DAO, according to Kel-Tecs own web site[1], Guns & Ammo[2], Shooting times[3], and many others. — DanMP5 15:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

So, you are saying that Kel-Tec's manual or website is a better reference than Wikipedia's own authoritative page [4] on how these actions work? That seems like a pretty weird argument. (By the way, I have access to P-3ATs, and I am intimately familiar with the action. It is indeed a pre-set hammer... but I am not so naive as to try to cite my personal experience on the main page!)

And I repeat my earlier comment, which someone reverted (Hey! This is not the main page, it is the DISCUSSION page!): Calling this DAO is not a matter of splitting hairs, it is simply wrong. It is the KIND of wrong that could mean somebody's life! This is the kind of error that should be avoided, when it can so easily be shown to be exactly that... an error.

Let me state this more clearly: the way this action works is often described as DAO, which is a simple way to describe it, and many people do not even know the difference. But the FACT is that unless the slide is first operated, the trigger does nothing. (This is different from DAO, in which the trigger always brings back the hammer.) The majority of the time, this makes no difference, and the operation is the same as if it were DAO. But there ARE exceptions, such as when a misfire occurs. It is not possible, as it is with a DAO, to simply pull the trigger to try again to fire the round; you HAVE TO work the slide first. This is the essential difference.

I do not have a reference to cite stating that this is so, which is why I did not make an entry on the main page. But I *know* it to be so, and I was hoping that someone else might be able to supply a reference. That is why I object to my comments being altered by others, which was done just recently.

I would like to add that an example given in the link I posted above regarding Pre-set hammers is the Kel-Tec P-32, which uses THE SAME ACTION! -- Jane Q. Public (talk)

I have in fact now found two references, but unfortunately they are only from discussion groups: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=248556 , "It has been brought to my attention that the hammer rests in a partially cocked position on the Kel-Tec PF-9, P-32, and P3AT; and possibly a few other pistols as well" and http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=393738 , "Why is the correct action never listed?"

Notice also that the P-32 and the P3-AT are described as being the same. -- Jane Q. Public (talk)

Look, I'm not saying that your definition of DAO vs pre-set is wrong (its completely correct), I'm saying that, according to several reliable sources, including the Kel-Tec P-3AT instruction manual[5] (read page 5, 7 and 8), all say it's DAO. And yes, Kel-Tecs website is a much more reliable source than Wikipedia, see WP:RS, WP:OR, and most importantly, WP:V. Also, both of your references aren't reliable at all, and contradict themselves several times.

Also, a google search for "P3AT DAO" produces 2,860 results, while a search for "P3AT pre-set" gives only 389, with non of the top ten being relevent to the P3AT.

And finally, do you have a reference for the P3AT using the same action as the P32? — DanMP5 17:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I already gave the reference. If you had actually read the articles you described as being "wrong" and "contradictory", you would have seen that statement very clearly. Since you did not, I find it hard to credit you with due (or even actual) diligence. In fact that sentence is located within the first 4 inches of the beginning of the first page I referenced above. I have to ask: did you actually read them at all?

You say that you are not saying that I am wrong, but you say that your sources are more "reliable" than mine; these are just weasel words. In effect, you ARE saying that I am wrong. But I disagree with your characterization of "reliability". This is not a matter of contradiction, it is simply a matter of one source acknowledging a fine (but real) point, and the other source not bothering. Many people simply do not bother to distinguish between DAO and Pre-set Hammer, and others do not even know the difference, just as many people would not know the difference on sight between a regular chestnut and a horse chestnut. They look and act almost the same, but there is a subtle and important difference.

I disagree completely that the maker's manual constitutes greater authority. The distinction between the two actions DOES exist, but the maker declines to acknowledge this fine point. Fine... others in the industry similarly do not bother. Wikipedia, on the other hand, correctly acknowledges that there is a difference. That makes the wikipedia entry the more factually correct. It may be a fine point, but it is a TRUE one. You can argue Wikipedia rules and technicalities all you want, but what you are saying is that even though my description may be correct, you don't like it. For technical Wikipedia reasons, of course... you have your citations. But nevertheless it is pretty obvious, considering that you have gone to all this trouble to discourage or suppress a demonstrably TRUE statement. I mean after all... you didn't even see that sentence right there at the top of that first page.

The fact is that Wikipedia, sadly, has become infested with people who "police" certain articles and seem more concerned with arguing Wikipedia rules and technicalities than they are for actualities. That is why I don't really care very much about Wikipedia anymore. It has gone seriously downhill in the last few years, and exactly such campers on articles are one of the major reasons why. It is not worth my time to fight this phenomenon; I would rather just go elsewhere, where the truth is respected more than rules. When the rules get in the way of the truth, it is the rules that need to be ignored, not the truth.

I am not trying to pick on anybody in particular; I have noticed this trend all over Wikipedia, especially in the last 2 or 3 years.

Note that this is the DISCUSSION page, and my comments are directly applicable to the goings-on here. I would take serious offense were my comments here to be edited again without prior discussion. -- Jane Q. Public (talk) 07:20, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course I read your references, but are you seriously saying that we should source this article with a guy on a forum stating "It has been brought to my attention that the hammer rests in a partially cocked position on the Kel-Tec PF-9, P-32, and P3AT; and possibly a few other pistols as well" without giving any sources as to where he heard this from? You are probably correct about the P-3AT being pre-set, but all information in Wikipedia has to be reliably sourced, and until you find a reliable source your info is just original research. Also, I did not say your references were wrong, I said they were unreliable and the second one contradicts itself several times. — DanMP5 18:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I can certainly attest as an owner of both weapons, that the P3-AT and P32 both use the same action, and that action is indeed a pre-set hammer. To the operator, DAO and pre-set hammer appear nearly identical, and the feel of action is very similiar, but the internal operation is quite different. Obviously my statements on this are original research, but as it appears that some sources describe the action as DAO, and some sources that describe the action as pre-set hammer, it would seem logical to favor the sources that are actually accurate on this matter, or at minimum point out the fact that there are conflicting views as to the nature of the mechanism. Dman727 (talk) 07:34, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I guess I'm just going to have to e-mail Kel-Tec to get a definitive reference for this. — DanMP5 18:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Well I e-mailed them twice not knowing they were closed for the holidays, then forgot about it for a month and finally e-mailed them again last week with no response so far. However I did find this (scroll down about halfway) saying the P32 isn't a true DAO, now we just need one saying the same about the 3AT. Just for the record, I've never shot a P-3AT or P32, not really into pocket pistols, but I have shot A P-11 which I distinctly remember was DAO. — DanMP5 19:32, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Additional Color Offering

My local shop range has this weapon in a dark pink or 'raspberry' color as the sales woman described it, they also have a 2 tone that I would describe as an grass green reciver and an OD green slide. I didnt see these mentioned on the Kel Tec website, but I have held them in my own hand so I know they exist. 12.129.136.5 (talk) 22:54, 6 August 2010 (UTC) THE FUDD

When was it designed? ...First sold?

Particularly because it was the first to fill its "niche" as noted above, it's date of birth is important.
--68.127.80.89 (talk) 06:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)Doug Bashford

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Model number

Per Kel-Tec, there is no "-" in the model number: https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearms/pistols/p3at/ 98.118.62.140 (talk) 20:31, 2 September 2021 (UTC)