Talk:Kim Ki-duk (director, born 1934)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move to Kim Ki-duk (born 1934). No consensus on moving Kim Ki-duk. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Kim Ki-duk (director) → ? — Given that both this and the other Kim Ki-duk are film directors, the disambiguating term "director" would seem less than ideal. I'm not sure what to suggest as an alternative, though. —PC78 (talk) 00:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support The (director) distinction bothered me from the beginning since they are both directors. Barring a better solution, I suggest "Kim Ki-duk (born 1934)" and "Kim Ki-duk (born 1960)" or some variation on that. Dekkappai (talk) 00:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support I'm the one who created the article with the name but not also satisfied with the title.--Appletrees (talk) 01:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support Kim Ki-duk (born 1934) and a move of Kim Ki-duk to Kim Ki-duk (born 1960). It was suggested below to keep "The Isle Kim Ki-duk as is, without date, since he is today far the more notable" but this is based on recentism rather than notability. — AjaxSmack 08:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Good point about Recentism, AjaxSmack. Recentism is an issue I've often seen at Wikipedia and tried to do my part to work against. However, in this case, I'm pretty sure The Isle Kim Ki-duk is far the more notable, regardless of time. When history of Korean cinema books are written 100 years from now, The Isle Kim will still probably warrant at least a mention, while Yonggary Kim may well be nearly forgotten. (I say this even though I, personally, am not very fond of The Isle Kim's films and think South Korea has several far better directors than him currently working). Dekkappai (talk) 17:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Clarifying The above said, it wouldn't bother me to have birth years on both articles. Dekkappai (talk) 17:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support move to Kim Ki-duk (born 1934), oppose move of Kim Ki-duk anywhere because of international awards to the younger director, and notability in the English speaking world. Rebuild Kim Ki-duk (director) as a dab page. 132.205.44.5 (talk)
  • A disambiguation page is not needed as long as there's not a third Kim Ki-duk article for the DJ, a hatnote at the top of each page should suffice. — AjaxSmack 23:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Though we appear to have reached concensus for this page, I think we'll need a separate move request for Kim Ki-duk. I personally have no preferance regarding that page, but opinion here seems to be more divided. PC78 (talk) 06:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support moving both. In the grand scheme of things, neither are hugely notable except to students of Asian cinema, especially in Western culture. Someone searching for the less well known director may be confused if reaching Kim Ki-duk, as it won't make clear which one it is until he reads the birthdate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Callmederek (talk • contribs) 21:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support moving this, but the other one is probably better kept where it is. A while back, someone moved the other Kim Ki-duk to Kim Ki-duk (film director, born 1960), without changing any of the links that led to him and without there being an article on this Kim Ki-duk, so I just reverted the move and added the dablink to the current title. The reason for the current title was that I couldn't a find a date of birth, and since one has now surfaced, I see no reason not to move this article to the more descriptive and less confusing title. - Bobet 12:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Comment: In such case, Korean wikipedia differentiates names with birth year like this. ko:김기덕. The other Kim Ki-duk director is spelled as ko:김기덕 (1960년)

Actually, the Kim Ki-duk of the article is the least famous among the three Kim Ki-duk in South Korea and one is a famous DJ but not known to outside of South Korea. --Appletrees (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

(It's interesting that this Kim Ki-duk, because of Yonggary, was the only Korean director very well-known in the U.S. until fairly recently...) Since the Korean Wiki differentiates by year of birth, I suggest we follow suit. Dekkappai (talk) 00:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy to disambiguate by year of birth. The only other suggestion I can come up with is the more cumbersome Kim Ki-duk (1960s-1970s director) (or something along those lines). PC78 (talk) 00:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Aside from the discussion, it is interesting to me that the name is neither common nor popular named for boys. The three Kim Ki-duks have their own notability in the entertainment/film field. --Appletrees (talk) 01:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

With the three of us, there's only one other editor listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Korean cinema task force, so we're unlikely to get much more input. I'd say we're in agreement on the year of birth. Now, how to implement it? "Kim Ki-duk (1960-)?" (Kim Ki-duk (born 1960)?" "Kim Ki-duk (b.1960)?"... is there a precedent at English Wiki with similar situations? I looked at John Adams (disambiguation), but they're using occupation and middle-name for disambiguation, which doesn't help us. Dekkappai (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed these two: John Quincy Adams and John Quincy Adams (1833-1894)... if that helps. Dekkappai (talk) 01:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it is okay that the director Kim Ki-duk of The Isle keeps at the current title because he is the most notable. So how about changing the title name of this article only like Kim Kid-duk (1943).--Appletrees (talk) 01:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I've found a few examples of similar name conflicts:

• Steve Smith (cricketer born 1961) and Steve Smith (cricketer born 1989)
• Graeme Smith (footballer born 1982) and Graeme Smith (footballer born 1983)
• Dave Smith (footballer born 1933) and Dave Smith (footballer born 1943)

Based on these it seems we should be using Kim Ki-duk (director born 1934). No obections to leaving Kim Ki-duk where it is, though. PC78 (talk) 01:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with keeping The Isle Kim Ki-duk as is, without date, since he is today far the more notable. However the sports examples, with occupation and year both, seem cumbersome to me. I'd rather go with "Kim Ki-duk (born 1934)". I wouldn't raise an objection if the concensus says "Kim Ki-duk (director born 1934)" though. Dekkappai (talk) 01:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, the occupation is probably included in those examples because there are numerous other people with those names as well. I guess we can afford to skip it and go with Kim Ki-duk (born 1934), as there are no other articles to worry about. PC78 (talk) 01:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:NAMEPEOPLE#Qualifier between bracketing parentheses says not to use years of birth and death for disambiguation. How about "(Yonggary director)" as a disambiguator ? --Kusunose (talk) 01:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm...I don't even surprise at your appearance here. Welcome to Korean film project? --Appletrees (talk) 02:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I like the idea of using a film name as the disambiguator - singling out a particular film from the director's body of work seems a touch subjective. I don't think that naming convention needs to be followed to the letter; clearly years of birth are sometimes used, even if they're not ideal. I'll raise the matter over there, though, and perhaps we can get some more input. PC78 (talk) 02:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Right-- I wouldn't agree to using Yonggary to identify the director. He was only known overseas for that film, and that was, no doubt, more because of the Godzilla cult. In Korea (to my understanding) he's better-known for his youth and action films. I still say name+birth year is sufficient. Dekkappai (talk) 02:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea of using "Yonggary" in the parameter. Per Dekkappai's comment, the director is better known for his adolescent movies in South Korea. If the title holds "Yonggary", many South Korean or K-film loves could think that the film director of "Yonggary" would be mistaken with Sim Hyeong-rae (the director of D-War) or Kim Cheong-ki (Ureomae). --Appletrees (talk) 02:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.