Talk:Kongu Vellalar/Archive 1

Archive 1

Cleanup

i have removed a large chunk of history. everything that is tangentially related to the words "Kongu" and "Vellalar" have been copied or translated and dumped here. please remember that this is an encyclpedia that documents only the most relevant and solidly proven facts and opinions supported by multiple reliable sources. I do not endorse the remained of the text i left behind in the article. --CarTick (talk) 11:59, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Reply

//everything that is tangentially related to the words "Kongu" and "Vellalar" have been copied or translated and dumped here.//

proof for each and line post .

// please remember that this is an encyclpedia that documents only the most relevant and solidly proven facts and opinions supported by multiple reliable sources. // every think is relevent one , i can prove u, data's present over here has peer reviewed journals , archelogy and Epigraphy proofs .

ask for clarification we can prove u Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 17:37, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

all content u have removed should be restored , all data has proper references from peer reviewed journals ,archelogy and Epigraphy proofs , government archelogy website datas , books reference from renowned international national level author and what else u need in that article Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 18:45, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Origins

content and explanation //Origins

The Kongu Vellala Gounders were referred as Gangakulam (Tamil: கங்காகுலம்) meaning the one descended from the King Gangadatta (Sanskrit: meaning "the one" given by the Goddess Ganga) (Tamil: கங்கதத்தன்) in Tamil, Hindu literature and religious works. The name Gounder[1] is a caste title[citation needed] derived from the Sangam Tamil word Kamindan (root word being Kavunda) which means "noble protector of his people" and was originally accorded to the "Feudal Lords" of the Kongu Nadu who had distinguished themselves bravely and fiercely in protecting the honour of the Kongu region and its people. References to this can be seen in the copper-plate inscriptions of the Chera, Chola and Pandya dynasties of Tamil Nadu. It is also found in the later Pallava and Ganga dynasties of South India. The root word Kavunda appears also in inscriptions of Karnataka and in archaic Kannada which have a lot in common with the Sangam Tamil Language, owing to its origin from the latter.[2] Gounder was a hereditary title of the Village Headman in the system of decentralised panchayat administration in South India. The root word Kavunda became Kavundan (கவுண்டன்). This system gained greater prominence and wider political ascendancy during the reign of King Durvinita of the Ganga dynasty. The posts of the Village Headmen (நாட்டாமை) is hereditary and was usually bestowed on the Kshatriya warrior clans of the Kongu Nadu and hence accustomed to the ruling Gangakulam (ref.: Kongudesa Rajakkal). The ancient recorded history of Kongu Nadu and Tamilakam reveals that the Chola warriors expanded into then heavily forested Kongu territory, took up agriculture and made the lands cultivable. They are traditionally considered to be Tamil speakers of the Kongu Nadu, an ancient division of Tamilakam that includes parts of northwest Tamil Nadu, portions of neighbouring Kerala and the southern Mysore region of Karnataka. They are one of the prominent castes within the Tamil community who have their roots in the Sangam Tamil culture. Their elaborate marriage festivities are mentioned by Kavirayar Kambar in his famous Kongu Mangala Vazhthu songs. The famous epic of Ponnar Shankar which was written by Kalaignar Karunanidhi illustrates them very clearly. Even today one can observe the sanctity attached to cattle breeding by the Kongu Vellalar when they call for their chief festival Pongal as Patti Nombi. The Vokkaliga Gowdas of Karnataka and the Kongu Vaellala of Tamil Nadu are some of the most well organised social groups in Southern India but with Kongu Vellalars showing even more intricately arranged socio-cultural hierarchy than their long separated ethnic cousins, the Vokkaliga Gowdas, owing to their long recorded history of martial Kshatriya status.[3][4] "These cultivators’ families have been growing from before the third century BCE (before the current era), so were their requirements. One notices an amount simplicity, politeness, and sincerity in their manners and customs. Their language is known for courtesy and respect. The Gaunders never go back on their word and are akin to “Satya-putras”, Sons of Truth. It is not with out basis that they call the ancient Atiyamaan Chieftains as a vellala. They are never tricky in their dealing but always straight forward. They are God fearing and large hearted people. Though Saivites they were never exclusive in their but patronize all sects of Hindu religion alike."[5]//

//The Kongu Vellala Gounders were referred as Gangakulam (Tamil: கங்காகுலம்) meaning the one descended from the King Gangadatta (Sanskrit: meaning "the one" given by the Goddess Ganga) (Tamil: கங்கதத்தன்) in Tamil, Hindu literature and religious works.// read this literture in wiki source , said to kongu mangala valthu http://ta.wikisource.org/wiki/%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8A%E0%AE%99%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%81_%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%99%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AE%B2%E0%AE%B5%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%B4%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%A4%E0%AF%81 கங்காகுலம் விளங்கக் கம்பர் சொன்ன வாழ்த்துரைத்து' ancient literature confirm it.

please let me know what else clarification u need in this Origin Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 17:28, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

the text is incoherent and unclear. please provide two sentences in plain English that claim the origins of Kongu Vellalars and the exact references. Primary sources (Tamil poem by Kambar in this case) can be used only in certain context and should not be interpreted at our will. please ask me if you do not understand any of these i have just said. please be brief and precise. thanks. --CarTick (talk) 17:40, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

//Primary sources (Tamil poem by Kambar in this case) can be used only in certain context and should not be interpreted at our will. // it has not interpeted by my own will, the poem has clearly mentioned and several other ancient books mentioned it , and to scholars to mentioned itPorulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 18:08, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

origins (removed from article)

The Kongu Vellala Gounders were referred as Gangakulam (Tamil: கங்காகுலம்) meaning the one descended from the King Gangadatta (Sanskrit: meaning "the one" given by the Goddess Ganga) (Tamil: கங்கதத்தன்) in Tamil, Hindu literature and religious works.

The name Gounder is a caste title derived from the Sangam Tamil word Kamindan (root word being Kavunda) which means "noble protector of his people" and was originally accorded to the "Feudal Lords" of the Kongu Nadu who had distinguished themselves bravely and fiercely in protecting the honour of the Kongu region and its people. References to this can be seen in the copper-plate inscriptions of the Chola, Chera and Pandya dynasties of Tamil Nadu. It is also found in the later Ganga and Pallava dynasties of South India. The root word Kavunda appears also in inscriptions of Karnataka and in archaic Kannada which have a lot in common with the Sangam Tamil Language, owing to its origin from the latter.

Gounder was a hereditary title of the Village Headman in the system of decentralised panchayat administration in South India. The root word Kavunda became Kavundan (கவுண்டன்). This system gained greater prominence and wider political ascendancy during the reign of King Durvinita of the Ganga dynasty. The posts of the Village Headmen (நாட்டாமை) is hereditary and was usually bestowed on the Kshatriya warrior clans of the Kongu Nadu and hence accustomed to the ruling Gangakulam (ref.: Kongudesa Rajakkal).

The ancient recorded history of Kongu Nadu and Tamilakam reveals that the Chola warriors expanded into then heavily forested Kongu territory, took up agriculture and made the lands cultivable. They are traditionally considered to be Tamil speakers of the Kongu Nadu, an ancient division of Tamilakam that includes parts of northwest Tamil Nadu, portions of neighbouring Kerala and the southern Mysore region of Karnataka. They are one of the prominent castes within the Tamil community who have their roots in the Sangam Tamil culture. Their elaborate marriage festivities are mentioned by Kavirayar Kambar in his famous Kongu Mangala Vazhthu songs. The famous epic of Ponnar Shankar which was written by Kalaignar Karunanidhi illustrates them very clearly.(how is this paragraph related to this article?)(Annamar Story which narates the life of Ponnar Shankar, is not, in any way related to the film Ponnar Shankar (apart from the Character names) that is scripted by Kalaingar Karunanithi. The story of the film Ponnar Shankar does not convey the epic.)

Even today one can observe the sanctity attached to cattle breeding by the Kongu Vellalar when they call for their chief festival Pongal as Patti Nombi.(what is the relationship between sanctity and calling Pongal as Patti Nombi) The Vokkaliga Gowdas of Karnataka and the Kongu Vaellala of Tamil Nadu are some of the most well organised social groups in Southern India but with Kongu Vellalars showing even more intricately arranged socio-cultural hierarchy than their long separated ethnic cousins, the Vokkaliga Gowdas, owing to their long recorded history of martial Kshatriya status.

"These cultivators’ families have been growing from before the third century BCE (before the current era), so were their requirements. One notices an amount simplicity, politeness, and sincerity in their manners and customs. Their language is known for courtesy and respect. The Gaunders never go back on their word and are akin to “Satya-putras”, Sons of Truth. It is not with out basis that they call the ancient Atiyamaan Chieftains as a vellala. They are never tricky in their dealing but always straight forward. They are God fearing and large hearted people. Though Saivites they were never exclusive in their but patronize all sects of Hindu religion alike."

could you please provide citations and page number for the sentences and references. also an explanation to my questions? --CarTick (talk) 19:07, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

//The Kongu Vellala Gounders were referred as Gangakulam (Tamil: கங்காகுலம்) meaning the one descended from the King Gangadatta (Sanskrit: meaning "the one" given by the Goddess Ganga) (Tamil: கங்கதத்தன்) in Tamil, Hindu literature and religious works// it is mentioned in "Kongu mangala valthu" written kambar before 1000 years, wiki source of poem had provided in my earlist post in this discussion. this is the line in that poem'கங்காகுலம் விளங்கக் கம்பர் சொன்ன வாழ்த்துரைத்து'. and also in "Kongudesarajakkal, Government manuscript Library, Chennai" present in this manuscript

//References to this can be seen in the copper-plate inscriptions of the Chola, Chera and Pandya dynasties of Tamil Nadu. It is also found in the later Ganga and Pallava dynasties of South India.// http://www.viruba.com/final.aspx?id=VB0002335 that book has all copper plate details

//The root word Kavunda appears also in inscriptions of Karnataka and in archaic Kannada which have a lot in common with the Sangam Tamil Language, owing to its origin from the latter// page number 34 and also check [1] read about kavundas over there. about kannada language origin [2]

//how is this paragraph related to this article?// because kongu nadu(ancient kongu country) and kongu vellalar or gounder are inseparatable,this country dominant people was kongu vellala

//what is the relationship between sanctity and calling Pongal as Patti Nombi)///

Thai Pongal, celebrated at harvest time, is traditionally intended to thank the Sun God and farmstead livestock that helped create the material abundance. we considers cattles are holy one so we back to this cattles on this day . "patti" means cow or cattle residing palace,"nombi" means festival. so we called it as patti nombi Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 20:03, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

page no 308 on that pdfPorulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 20:08, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

replies

1. Kambar's poem does not mention the word Kongu Vellalar. it is your interpretation that Gangakulam mentioned in the poem is same as Kongu Vellalar. WP:Synthesis.
2. Have your read this book (http://www.viruba.com/final.aspx?id=VB0002335). please point to the exact page and exact quote that verifies your claim.
3. please dont quote wikipedia articles as references.
4. Kongu Nadu and Kongu Vellalars are inseparable. that is your own interpretation. not mine. need reference. WP:Original research.
5. sanctity and patti nombi relationship needs reference. your explanation isnt enough. even if you have reference, it doesnt make a lot of sense to add it in Origins section.
6. on page 308 of the pdf, i dont even see the word "Vellala". --CarTick (talk) 20:23, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

//Kambar's poem does not mention the word Kongu Vellalar. it is your interpretation that Gangakulam mentioned in the poem is same as Kongu Vellalar.// kambar written poem about only kongu vellalar marriage and about kongu vellalar not any other. this peom is recited only kongu vellala marriage Sadayappa Vallal, who patronised Kambar is kongu vellalar

//Have your read this book (http://www.viruba.com/final.aspx?id=VB0002335). please point to the exact page and exact quote that verifies your claim.// that full book contains inscription and copper plate information about kongu vellalar, some quote முதலிகளில் சுவடன் செய்யான் குன்ற காமுண்டன் ; முதலிகளில் சாகடன் இளமன் பெருமாள் காமுண்டன்; "பாவான்னையூர் காமிண்டன் மணியன் மணியனார் தொறு மீட்டுப்பட்டார்"' "கல்வெட்டில் வெள்ளாளன் புல்லிகளில் கோவன் இருடன் ஆன இராஜ நாராயண காமுண்டன்" //please dont quote wikipedia articles as references.// Adiga 2006, p173 Adiga (2006), p176-177 Adiga (2006), p20 //on page 308 of the pdf, i dont even see the word "Vellala"// check this "Thooran Kootam of the Konghu Velhala Gounder community" //Kongu Nadu and Kongu Vellalars are inseparable. that is your own interpretation. not mine. need reference.// http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft88700868&chunk.id=d0e11624&toc.id=d0e4510&brand=ucpress pages 220 ,221

http://books.google.com/books?id=y089AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=kongu+vellala&hl=en&ei=k_D0TLrzJ8HPrQfBouzvBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q=gounder&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=usOMZjTWrJ0C&pg=PA75&dq=kongu+vellala&hl=en&ei=6-n0TI-GJ8_wrQe8rvDaBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=kongu&f=false

The Kongu Vellalas of Coimbatore - A Historical Sketch of A Dominant Peasant Community,கட்டுரையாளர் : சுந்தரராஜ் மாணிக்கம் Sundararaj Manickam கட்டுரையாளர் பணி : கட்டுரைப் பிரிவு : Culture - பண்பாடு ஆய்விதழ் எண் : 016 - December 1979 பக்கங்கள் : 034 - 047, Journal of Tamil Studies http://www.ulakaththamizh.org/JOTSpdf/016034047.pdfPorulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 20:57, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I hate I have to do this. i guess we have trouble understanding each other. I am not able to verifiy that Gangakulam refers to Vellala gounder, but i am just going to assume good faith and take your word on it. I, also have difficulty verifying other facts. let us try again. I would like to verify the following texts. please just point to the reference and page number.

1. Gounder is a caste title derived from the Sangam Tamil word Kamindan (root word being Kavunda) which means "noble protector of his people" and was originally accorded to the "Feudal Lords" of the Kongu Nadu who had distinguished themselves bravely and fiercely in protecting the honour of the Kongu region and its people.
2. Gounder was a hereditary title of the Village Headman in the system of decentralised panchayat administration in South India
3. This system gained greater prominence and wider political ascendancy during the reign of King Durvinita of the Ganga dynasty.
4. The posts of the Village Headmen (நாட்டாமை) is hereditary and was usually bestowed on the Kshatriya warrior clans of the Kongu Nadu and hence accustomed to the ruling Gangakulam (ref.: Kongudesa Rajakkal)
5. The Vokkaliga Gowdas of Karnataka and the Kongu Vaellala of Tamil Nadu are some of the most well organised social groups in Southern India but with Kongu Vellalars showing even more intricately arranged socio-cultural hierarchy than their long separated ethnic cousins.

--CarTick (talk) 15:05, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

one of the wikipedia adminstrator had stated this line in one of edits in this article

"copedit, removed large parts of c&p copyrighted text from the source links" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kongu_Vellalar&diff=416063117&oldid=408613797 u says here just use original text of the source link fully Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 16:41, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

//Gounder is a caste title derived from the Sangam Tamil word Kamindan (root word being Kavunda) which means "noble protector of his people" and was originally accorded to the "Feudal Lords" of the Kongu Nadu who had distinguished themselves bravely and fiercely in protecting the honour of the Kongu region and its people// http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2516/stories/20080815251611400.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=y089AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=kongu+vellala&hl=en&ei=k_D0TLrzJ8HPrQfBouzvBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q=gounder&f=false page 77,78,79,80.

Beck, Brendo E. F. (1972). Peasant Society in Konku: A Study of Right and Left Subcastes in South India. Vancouver: University of British Columbia Press. ISBN 978-0774800143.

this full book has mentioned detaily about "feudal Lords" of the Kongu Nadu was kongu vellala gounders

Byres, T. J.; Harbans Mukhia (1985). Feudalism and non-European societies. Routledge. ISBN 978-0714632452.[ http://books.google.com/books?id=usOMZjTWrJ0C&pg=PA75&dq=kongu+vellala&hl=en&ei=6-n0TI-GJ8_wrQe8rvDaBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=kongu&f=false.] page 67,75,76,84

Manickam, V. (2001). Kongu Nadu, a history up to A.D. 1400. Makkal Veliyeedu. [3] this book fully about kongu, LOCAL RUlERS of KONGU(for feudal Lords ) detail page no 297

http://www.viruba.com/final.aspx?id=VB0002335 and also check this book

Kongu King List 1. Achyuta Rayan;(local kongu vellala) 2. Jatavarman Kulottunga cholan?; 3. Jatavarman Sundara Pandyan; 4. Kok-kalimurkha Vikrama cholsn; 5. Kokkanadan Viranarayanan; 6. Kulottunga Cholan; 7. Maravarman Sundara Pandyan; 8. Nanjarayan; 9. Parakesari Vikrama cholan; 10. Rajakesari Kulottunga cholan; 11. Rajakesari Vira Narayana devan; 12. Rajakesari Vira Pandyan; 13. Rajakesari Virarajendran; 14. Vira cholan; 15. Vira Pandyan; 16. Vira Somisvaran;(kongu vellala) 17. Vira Vallalan(kongu vellala) http://www.tamilartsacademy.com/journals/volume8/articles/article3.xml

"The Vēļāļar of the Tamil country (the descendants of the Vēļir) have retained the honorific till this day in their names (c.f kaņţar, kavuņţan and 'gouņder' (the last two from Ka.gauda<ganda)"already i had given refernce to this lines.

The Velir constituted a large and powerful ruling class in the early historical Tamil society. The frequent phrase ventar-um velir-um('the Kings and Chieftains') in the Cankam poems (e.g,patir,30,49,75,88) indicates the high position occupied by the Velir in the Tamil polity next only to the three great crowned kings.The Velir ruled the smaller principalities as Chieftains and also served at the court of the crowned Kings as nobles,Ministers and Generals. it is mentioned(Naccinarkkiniyar in Tol.Purattinai,79)that the Velir had the right to give their daughters in marriage to the Royal princes.The Velir chiefs known as Vallals were famous for their liberality and patronage of Tamil poets.The Velir of the Cankam Age,the Velir of the medival period,and the Velalar,the great mass of Tamil peasantry down to the modern times, all seem to belongs to the same stock.Naccinarkkiniyar(Tol.,Porul.,34)mentions that tha Vellalar were men at the command of the velir,and divides them into two classes,namely those who owned the land and those who actually cultivated it.The attachment of the Vellalar to the land is so proverbial that the word for agriculture in Tamil is velanmai(abstract noun formed from velal. The folklore of the Tamil Velalar still preserves the tradition that they are Gangeyas('Children of the Ganga river') http://www.ulakaththamizh.org/JOTSpdf/030024037.pdf Page no 28,29

//Gounder was a hereditary title of the Village Headman in the system of decentralised panchayat administration in South India//

Gounder was a hereditary title of the Village Headman in the system of decentralised panchayat administration in South India The Kongu Vellalas of Coimbatore - A Historical Sketch of A Dominant Peasant Community,கட்டுரையாளர் : சுந்தரராஜ் மாணிக்கம் Sundararaj Manickam கட்டுரையாளர் பணி : கட்டுரைப் பிரிவு : Culture - பண்பாடு ஆய்விதழ் எண் : 016 - December 1979 பக்கங்கள் : 034 - 047, Journal of Tamil Studies http://www.ulakaththamizh.org/JOTSpdf/016034047.pdf (PAGE 36)

//his system gained greater prominence and wider political ascendancy during the reign of King Durvinita of the Ganga dynasty.// Gounder was a hereditary title of the Village Headman in the system of decentralised panchayat administration in South India The Kongu Vellalas of Coimbatore - A Historical Sketch of A Dominant Peasant Community,கட்டுரையாளர் : சுந்தரராஜ் மாணிக்கம் Sundararaj Manickam கட்டுரையாளர் பணி : கட்டுரைப் பிரிவு : Culture - பண்பாடு ஆய்விதழ் எண் : 016 - December 1979 பக்கங்கள் : 034 - 047, Journal of Tamil Studies http://www.ulakaththamizh.org/JOTSpdf/016034047.pdf (PAGE 37)

administration of ganga dyanasty Adiga 2006, p173 Adiga (2006), p176-177 Adiga (2006), p20 //The Vokkaliga Gowdas of Karnataka and the Kongu Vaellala of Tamil Nadu are some of the most well organised social groups in Southern India but with Kongu Vellalars showing even more intricately arranged socio-cultural hierarchy than their long separated ethnic cousins.//

Nandini, B. P.; Divyashree, Mahalakshmi (26 April 2010). "Born to be a force to reckon with". Daily News and Analysis.[ http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/report_born-to-be-a-force-to-reckon-with_1375664.]

this is well , u read and understood i think so Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 16:41, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

random break

please dont give me more than i ask for. it is pretty confusing. This reference says "The term refers to people who protected land, people and country". what reference says that Kamindan means "noble protector of his people"? --CarTick (talk) 21:04, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Political Change and Agrarian Tradition in South India by T. K. Venkatasubramanian pages 63 to 67: "They (the Vellalas) formed the nobility or landed aristocracy of the country."This reference

"The Vēļāļar of the Tamil country (the descendants of the Vēļir) have retained the honorific till this day in their names (c.f kaņţar, kavuņţan and 'gouņder' (the last two from Ka.gauda<ganda)"already i had given refernce to this lines.

The Velir constituted a large and powerful ruling class in the early historical Tamil society. The frequent phrase ventar-um velir-um('the Kings and Chieftains') in the Cankam poems (e.g,patir,30,49,75,88) indicates the high position occupied by the Velir in the Tamil polity next only to the three great crowned kings.The Velir ruled the smaller principalities as Chieftains and also served at the court of the crowned Kings as nobles,Ministers and Generals. it is mentioned(Naccinarkkiniyar in Tol.Purattinai,79)that the Velir had the right to give their daughters in marriage to the Royal princes.The Velir chiefs known as Vallals were famous for their liberality and patronage of Tamil poets.The Velir of the Cankam Age,the Velir of the medival period,and the Velalar,the great mass of Tamil peasantry down to the modern times, all seem to belongs to the same stock.Naccinarkkiniyar(Tol.,Porul.,34)mentions that tha Vellalar were men at the command of the velir,and divides them into two classes,namely those who owned the land and those who actually cultivated it.The attachment of the Vellalar to the land is so proverbial that the word for agriculture in Tamil is velanmai(abstract noun formed from velal. The folklore of the Tamil Velalar still preserves the tradition that they are Gangeyas('Children of the Ganga river')

above think is about velir(vellalar) honorific title is gounder , this paragraph explained clearly who is velir, from this lines clearly says they are noble http://www.ulakaththamizh.org/JOTSpdf/030024037.pdf Page no 28,29

Ancient Indian History and Civilization By Sailendrda Nath Sen page 205 & 207: "... the Vellalars were the aristocratic classe and were held in high esteem..." [4]

Meluhha and Agastya: Alpha and Omega of the Indus Script by Iravatham Mahadevan, Indus Research Centre, Roja Muthiah Research Library, Chennai, India, page 16: "The Ventar - Velir - Vellalar groups constituted the ruling and land-owning classes in the Tamil country since the beginning of recorded history..."

[5]

The term refers to people who protected land, people and country always rulers are noble Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 15:42, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

this is general meaning of noble

The term derives from Latin nobilis (well-known, famous), indicating those who were "well-known" or "notable" in society, and was applied to the highest social class in pre-modern societies. In the feudal system (in Europe and elsewhere), the nobility were generally those who held a fief, often land or office, under vassalage, i.e., in exchange for allegiance and various, mainly military, services to a suzerain, who might be a monarch or a higher-ranking nobleman. It rapidly came to be seen as a hereditary caste, sometimes associated with a right to bear a hereditary title and, for example in pre-revolutionary France, enjoying fiscal and other privileges. from wiki Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 15:55, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Please try to give short answers, i dont have a lot of time. now, responding to your comments, you are using several references to arrive to a conclusion which favors your viewpoint that is to call the Kongu vellalars as "noble" protectors of land and people. We call that WP:Synthesis around here. Please familiarise yourself with that link. --CarTick (talk) 18:04, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

well, i am not trying to discourage you. you have nice references but that is not enough and it is important that we dont go overboard. there is a fine line between copyright violation and original research. if you wanna wait, i will try to rephrase and write an "origin" section myself based on all these references you provided. But, i can not do it today. i need some time, may be a couple of weeks. --CarTick (talk) 18:22, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

don't forgot add this sub topics too(Kongu Velalar Puranas - Bodhayana,Introduction of paddy fields and sugar cane cultivation), orgin it had link to journal by former director archeology of tamil nadu

author profile read this

there are about 175 top class references ,that is this article strenth, and there are about list of 60 - 80 archelogy books in tamil by director of archelogy in depth style , tamils and other indian can understand it better .

what about other 15 Title or Topics u had removed, shall i start discussion Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 14:56, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Surnames and titles(removed from article)

The people in the Kongu Vaellalar community have two titles in general:

1) The title, which is Goundan or Gounder. Some use honorary titles like Sankaradampalayam Pattakkarar (also known as Venadudayar) from the (Sankarandampalayam - Peria Kulam) , Mandradiar (the Pattakarar of Palayakottai), Deva Mandradiar (Kulaiyan Kulam), Vanavarayar (the Zamin of Samathur), Kalingarayar (Zamin of Uthukuli), Pallavarayar (Kangayampalayam near Kangeyam) , Palayakottai Pattakkarar (Payira kulam), Katayur Pattakkarar (Porulanthi kulam), Puthur Pattakkarar (Cenkannan kulam) and Kangeyan, Kaadavarayar(Keechaka vamsam/kaadava dynasty/kaadai kootam whose kuladeivam at Keechakanoor (Keeranur) -the Kichakan of Mahabharatam), Vanchirayar(Mayilan kulam), Achyuta Thondaiman(Poosan kulam), Kolu Senai Mandradiar ('கொலு சேனை மன்றாடி'ஓதாளர் குலதத்து பிறவியான் Odhaalar kulam), Mummudi Mandraiar ('மும்முடி நல்லதம்பி மன்றாடி'Kannan Kulam).

2) The clan or Kulam, Kootam name, which is the surname generally like Periya kulam, Cenkannan, Payiran, Porunlanthi etc.

There is historicity in the list furnished by Cinnasami Gaunder in his book “Kongu Vellala Gaunder varalaru” (History of Kongu Vellala Gaunder) wherein he has stated that the following titles assumed by some families are the titles conferred by Kings in ancient times. Gangeyan; Mandradiyar; Kamindan; Vanavarayan; Deva Mandradiar; Kaccirayan; Kalingarayan; Tondaiman; Pallavarayan; Ulakudaiyan All these names are found in mediaeval inscriptions from Coimbatore.

people from the kongu vellala gounder community of Tamil Nadu have in general two titles: the caste title Gounder and the clan name, example Perungudi. Nowadays it is common for people not to use any of these titles. So a Konguvel, son of Shanmuganathan, of say Erode, would call himself Konguvel Shanmughanathan, instead of the traditional Erode Perungudi Konguvel Gounder. For example a person with given name Muthuvel from the Kannan clan would call himself Kannan Muthuvel Gounder.Nowadays it is general practice among the Kongu Vellalar community not to use any kulam, kootam but instead just add the fathers name as the surname. However, many community members are now reviving the use of the kulam name of surname.

add reference list with it Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 15:18, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

start this Topic too and what verification u need in this topic . just ask i will give the reference Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 15:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

start discussion Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 13:47, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Feudal past(removed from article)

The Kongu Vellalars also known as "Gangakulam" were the Kurunila Mannars of ancient Tamilakkam. The seven great Kadaiyezhu Vallalgal hailed from this community who were great patrons and philanthropists. The Royal family of Sankaradamplayam Pattakkarars known as Venadudayars (வேணுடுடையார்) are the traditional head of the Kongu Vellalar community. Kongu Nadu was divided into 24 regions popularly known as Nadus. The Royal family of Palayakottai Pattakkarars also known as Mandradiars (மன்றாடியார் in Tamil) were the traditional administrative heads. These regions are often suffixed by the word Nadu and represent the area they include like Annamalai Nadu, Poondurai Nadu, Thenkarai Nadu, Rasi Nadu, Poovaniya Nadu, Kilanku Nadu. Under this organizational system, the chiefs of the 24 regions would get together and decide on various political and social issues and accordingly govern the people and its region.

add reference book list with it 15:17, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

could you please provide page numbers and may be exact quotes from these references that support all these claims? --CarTick (talk) 13:31, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

this is reality claims

buy this canadian written book read fully exact quotes present over these books Beck, Brendo E. F. (1972). Peasant Society in Konku: A Study of Right and Left Subcastes in South India. Vancouver: University of British Columbia Press. ISBN 978-0774800143.

same canadian had created this website atleast know the fact [[6]] or buy this book

Manickam, V. (2001). Kongu Nadu, a history up to A.D. 1400. Makkal Veliyeedu. http://books.google.com/books?ei=XAX1TM-OA8asrAe_gPnwBg&ct=result&id=WTRuAAAAMAAJ&dq=kongu+vellala&q=kongu+#search_anchor.

or if u know to read tamil means i will give u lot book exact quote

The Kongu country had three main territorial divisions. The largest called “Kongu mandalam”. The second is the Territorial division called “nadu” consisting of a number of villages grouped together. This was the larger administrative unit. The third is the village called “Ur”. There is an interesting poem sung by Karmegha pulavar named “Kongu mandala satakam” (Hundred poems on Kongu region) which gives the boundaries of Kongu Mandalam, the number and names of the Nadu divisions and the number of Villages. According to this work there were 24 Territorial divisions called Nadus. Under these divisions were the Urs Villages. There were altogether 615 villages in this Mandalam. The number of Nadus and the number of villages under each are given below 1. Anaimalai nadu 20 villages, 2. Anda nadu 15, 3. Arai nadu 35, 4. Araiya nadu 32, 5. Gangeya nadu 14, 6. Kanchi kovil nadu 12, 7. Kilangu nadu 14, 8. Kuruppu nadu 33, 9. Kvadikka nadu 24, 10. Mana nadu 8, 11. Nallurukka nadu 21, 12. Oduvanga nadu 16, 13. Pongalur nadu 27, 14. Punturai nadu 32, 15. Puvaniya nadu 26, 16. Rasipura nadu 24 17. Talaiya nadu 13 , 18. Tattaiya nadu 25, 19. Ten karai nadu 12, 20. Vadakarai nadu 24, 21. Vaikavur nadu 18, 22. Valavanti nadu 20, 23. Varakka nadu 16, 24. Vengala nadu 16

[7]

The Kongu Vellalar Marbu

There is historicity in the list furnished by Cinnasami Gaunder in his book “Kongu Vellala Gaunder varalaru” (History of Kongu Vellala Gaunder) wherein he has stated that the following titles assumed by some families are the titles conferred by Kings in ancient times. Gangeyan; Manradiyar; Kamindan; Vanavarayan; Kaccirayan; Kalingarayan; Tondaiman; Pallavarayan; Ulakudaiyan All these names are found in mediaeval inscriptions from Coimbatore.

http://www.tamilartsacademy.com/journals/volume8/articles/article6.xml

The naaDu organization of VeLLaala Gounders in contemporary Coimbatore District

Beck found that in KonKunaaDu the VeLLaaLa Gounders' descent organization was associated with a hierarchy of Kin-owned and highly localized temples that marked the subunits of the naaDu. The Gounder family(KuDampam) and lineage(gothram) were associated with a local village(uur) councill and a goddess temple;the clan was associated with a localized Kiraamam (the Village revenue area)council and a goddess temple; and the subcaste was associated with the naaDu. Thus,the Kin-based subcaste was identified with the territory of the naaDu.Further ,adjacent naaDus were sometimes joined by crosscutting kin ties created through marriage alliances.Kinship structure and naaDu structure ,therefore,closely corresponded and were tied to a Kin-dominated temples.Above the naaDu level however,kinship structure no longer played a part and all the Gounders of the KonkunaaDu region came under the authority of powerful regional leaders known as pattakkaarar(Beck 1972:66ff).

Beck observed in KonkunaaDu an adaptation of segmentary lineage organization to the regulation and organization of small localities.NaaDus of small size are characteristic of agriculturists.Stein(1980:95)notes that in medieval times in CholamaNDalam-a region in what is today Tamilnadu-most naaDu boundaries encompassed an area ranging from fifteen to thirty square miles.Arid regions had larger naaDu territories of up to 200 square miles in area(Stein 1980:97).This size range is commensurate with what is still found today in arid KonKunaaDu.

The Gounders' naaDu territory issegmented along descent lines that correspond to the division of Kin-owned temples.At each point of linked kin and territorial segmentation,there is a temple owned by the Kin segment.These temples are dedicated to goddesses who are Specific to the locality, and they are presided over by Gounder priets. At the subcaste level of the naaDu,the goddess is replaced by a temple dedicated to Shiva;although it is presided over by a Brahman priest,the temple is controlled by the Gounders.This marks the juncture at which kin organization is superseded.Below this point,the goddesses are specific to particular Kin groups and localities,but Shiva is a god worshiped by all Gounders(all Gounders in the sense all clans of Kongu vellala Gounder).Shiva temples are not inherently associated with a particular territory.

The naaDu level also marks the point of articulation with Brahmanical Hinduism.Itis the level of the general rather that the specific;the union of localities rather that Kin-based,local caste organization.In medieval times(eleventh to thirteenth centuries) the naaDus were the local semi-independent administrative units of the Kingly state.They were also units of taxation.During the of the Vijayanagar Kings(A.D.1350-1650),naaDus encompassing larger territories were formed by powerful warrior chiefs who maintained alliances with the Kingly state.Their chieftain territories(paalaiyams) were often composed of several naaDus.The chiefly paalaiyams lost their importance in the late seventeenth century ,but the naaDus continued as a form of local political organization(Murton 1979:15-17) .It is worthwhile to emphasize the clear correspondence between Gounder naaDu and temple organization and what is described in the previous chapter as the Tamilians' sense of the cosmos as divided into the domains of small ,kin-oriented gods(Kuladeevam) and high kingly gods such as Shiva.The Gounders' Kin-organized naaDus have small-god temples,whereas the locality naaDu has as its focus a Saivite temple.The distinction between King and Kingly domains maintained.

Councils headed by persons holding named hereditary offices occur at each level of segmentation.At the level of the settlement is the uur Gounder.At the Kiraamam level the headman is called muppaaTTukkaarar,whereas at the naaDu level the caste officer is called naaTTanmaikkaarar or naattu Gounder,or simply naaTTar(Beck 1972:66ff).According to Beck,the uur Gounder-the Village-level officer-has important dispute settlement responsibilities,not only for his own caste but for dependent caste as well.The naaTTar and muppaaTTukkaarar,however,seem to have lost their function in the last thirty years, and their purpose is no longer clear.They appear to have once had largely ceremonical roles relating to the goddess temples . They act as representatives of their own naaDus at the important ceremonies of neighboring naaDus, and they collect funds for worship at the goddess temples

Within KonKunaadu(kongu nadu),but above the level of the naaDu,the Gounders'pattakkaarars still have some dispute settlement functions and their duties as caste officers are closely associated with Shiva temples.Beck(1972:108) also notes that adjacent naaDus were once linked by ritualized marriage ties.these caste endogamous marriages occurred among a number of castes of the right-hand section.Consequently,right-hand castes were linked vertically by political-economic interdependence and horizontally by marriage alliances.

it is apparent that the Gounder naaDu polity is founded on land ownership and Kingship, and is symbolically integrated by joint worship at Shiva temples at the naaDu level and Kin temples at lower levels,Land is owned by Gounders and is distributed along King lines;the territory they dominate through their control of land is subdivided along naaDu lines.Temples below the naaDu level are Kin specific and linked to the segmented Kin units of household,lineage,clan, and subcaste.The offices of the caste are hereditary and are also linked to different levels of King segmentation.Kinship,ownership of land settlement pattern,temple geography,the juncture of small-god(the Kin-linked goddesses) and high-god(Shiva) ritualization, and political organization all appear to be isomorphic and parallel components of the Gounders' locality-based naaDu structure.

Beck notes(1972:70) that leadership at the extremes of the system at the level of the uur Gounder and pattakkaarar,still has some importance in settling disputes ......etc... Mines, Mattison (1985). The warrior merchants: textiles, trade, and territory in South India. Cambridge University Press. http://books.google.com/books?id=y089AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=kongu+vellala&hl=en&ei=k_D0TLrzJ8HPrQfBouzvBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q=gounder&f=false. "The naaDu organization of VeLLaaLa Gounders in contemporary." Page No 77,78,79,80Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 16:48, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder(talk) 16:22, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 15:12, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The Kongu history is very much identified with the four titled families that belong to Gounder community. There titled families are:

• PaRilakoTTai PaTTakkarar (payira clan)
• KaTayur PaTTakkarar( porulanthi clan)
• Putur PaTTakkarar(CenkaNNan clan)
• CankaraNTampalayam PaTTakkarar(periya clan)

They not only controlled large areas of land but also acted as final courts of appeal in serious disputes. Their titles(PaTTams) were directly granted from the kings. All the four families lived in the central part of Kongu area. Three of them trace their descent from about the twelfth or thirteenth century, while the fourth in the CankaraNTampalayam claims a title awarded by the Vijayanagar king in about the sixteenth century. "Reviews". Asia Pacific Viewpoint (Victoria University of Wellington) 17. 1976. http://books.google.com/books?ei=Lv_0TOnEBMOJrAfW26DZBg&ct=result&id=UrctAAAAIAAJ&dq=kongu+vellala&q=kongu+#search_anchor.page No 14 Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 16:55, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure we will be able to work together. you seem to have no intention of providing me what you are asked for. i dont have time to read through this pile of pointless information. for example, i would like to know a reference which would verify this claim "The seven great Kadaiyezhu Vallalgal hailed from this community who were great patrons and philanthropists." i have asked you multiple times to be brief. I also have difficulty understanding your English. --CarTick (talk) 21:57, 2 March 2011 (UTC).

first of all i am not a native english speaker either my mother tonque is not english.

//i have asked you multiple times to be brief// just quote u what u need

//"The seven great Kadaiyezhu Vallalgal hailed from this community who were great patrons and philanthropists."//

van Bakel, Martin; Renée Hagesteijn; Pieter van de Felde, ed (1994). Pivot politics: changing cultural identities in early state formation processes. Amsterdam: Het Spinhuis.p. 172. ISBN 90-5589-007-3.

Aiyangar, Sakkottai Krishnaswami (2004) [1911]. Ancient India: collected essays on the literary and political history of Southern India. Delhi: Asian Educational Services. p. 351.Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 14:20, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

but then, why these references were not added to the text? --CarTick (talk) 14:48, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

edit in this article was semi protected for last 2 months , and again locked Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 15:42, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

suggestions

well, i hope you understand the points i was trying to make. just to summarize them

1. make sure that everything you add has references
2. write everything in your own words, no copy pasting
3. do not combine information from two or more references to come to a new conclusion
4. make sure that you understand the difference between legend and facts and write them as it is. if you are writing a legend about Kongu Vellalars, say that it is a legend.
5. know the difference between primary sources and secondary sources. for example, all old tamil poems are primary sources. books and articles written about the poems are secondary sources. Thirukkural is a primary source. primary sources are often unclear and you may be tempted to interpret and clarify them which is not allowed. any such clarification requires a secondary source. use secondary sources as much as possible.
6. avoid using peacock terms such as "great", "excellent", "highly", "eminent" and so on. in short, dont just say a person is great. explain what the person did. it is up to the readers to decide whether what did is great or otherwise

please follow these guidelines and rewrite all these removed texts. you can draft them in your own user space, for example here at User:Kongu Kaviyarasu Gounder/Kongu Vellalar and hopefully it will be acceptable to all of us. --CarTick (talk) 20:56, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

for me one doubt, if secondary source is Tamil journal by International Associaion of Tamil Research and renowned tamil nadu goverment archiologist and ASI(Archaeological Survey of India) archiologist , secondary source in tamil language also from International Institute for Tamil Studies[8] etc.... whether wiki will accept this as a secondary source

ok thanks for your suggestions . i will follow your guidelines Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 13:21, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

i make you request , please write the article for us,that we discussed here in your words with my references(use my reference which i provide you during discussion)Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 13:21, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Tamil secondary sources are acceptable without a problem. but it should be reliable. for example, you can not use random websites or articles (whether English or Tamil). you have to convince us that the random source is known for fact checking and therefore reliable.

to answer your other question, I dont write that great. I sympathise with you and would love to write the article for you. but, unfortunately my life and job wouldnt allow me to take that much time off. I, however, think, you guys might need someone who is better at writing. --CarTick (talk) 13:38, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

//but it should be reliable//

i here only talk about only research journals and renowned archelogists journal , archeology goverment website etc.... and renowned international and national historians

//:to answer your other question, I dont write that great. I sympathise with you and would love to write the article for you. but, unfortunately my life and job wouldnt allow me to take that much time off. I, however, think, you guys might need someone who is better at writing.// thanks ok we make it .

Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 14:02, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Restore Permission

grand me restore permission of article content Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 18:56, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

i will restore the article content now , discuss with me anythink about the article and reference details etc.. and any clarification needed about the article i will provide you Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 19:06, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

just having vague references is not sufficient. the sources have to be reliable and we also can not synthesise new content by combining two facts from two different references. you will also need to be patient. i dont have all the time in the world. --CarTick (talk) 19:11, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

So i can restore Origin in Article, reply as soon as posiblePorulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 21:35, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

not yet. i will have time to look at ur replies later tonight or tomorrow. i dont see the need to hurry. --CarTick (talk) 22:05, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

so i can restore these three topic Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 14:06, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

no reply, so now i can restore all topics Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 04:52, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

ok i am going to restore back all the topic, any clarification , we can discuss back Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 14:54, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Ulittleredrose, 30 March 2011

In Sub-divisions of Kongu Vellalars: The list of 32 gounders are entirely wrong and misleading. Kongu Vella Gouders are separate caste similar to other gounders in the list. And the 32 Gounders do not come under Kongu Vellalars. Please make changes accordingly. Kongu Vellalars have koottams(Kulam).

For Clear Info: There are sub divisions in Gounders(A). There are NO sub divisions in Kongu Vellalars(Kongu Vellala Gounders)(B). KVG are a sub division under Gounders where the other 32 Gounders(C) come.

B and C come under A. C do not come under B.

Ulittleredrose (talk) 05:01, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

 Not done. Please supply a specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

In other words, you need to explicitly state what needs to be changed, and what exactly it needs to be changed to. – Ajl^talk 06:36, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

In Sub-divisions of Kongu Vellalars:

//In Sub-divisions of Kongu Vellalars: The list of 32 gounders are entirely wrong and misleading. Kongu Vella Gouders are separate caste similar to other gounders in the list. And the 32 Gounders do not come under Kongu Vellalars. Please make changes accordingly. Kongu Vellalars have koottams(Kulam).

For Clear Info: There are sub divisions in Gounders(A). There are NO sub divisions in Kongu Vellalars(Kongu Vellala Gounders)(B). KVG are a sub division under Gounders where the other 32 Gounders(C) come.

B and C come under A. C do not come under B.//

i like u to view this

government record

http://books.google.com/books?id=FchrfQ-BCVMC&pg=PA347&dq=kongu+vellala+gounder&hl=en&ei=nAMHTe_3A5DkrAe5layODg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=kongu%20vellala%20gounder&f=false

http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OAAAANlYR40M6m0KQeg5vYQwNZPBf3TGR26mi1J74fW3Kx3aXqFWS-viCQSI-o04lNnlLjuXl7hV9Bkt5SD1TzdQbHsAm1T1UEY_CXNjLsJkZ5hAyy3wHy1Dalq5.jpg

http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OAAAADxSglCawlvFaBNzfuPOVAg0l6ynVupOkVWeOSIlw08ay_usKzX9tCyVN2jJV0qE00FIF_UGJ4CPJPWoFIQ0YroAm1T1UIHBZOxL2lDyI8PWBgdeZTGdK2tT.jpg

http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OAAAADH0l5L_lFA1Y3LYnQnGVkLPX70OBnr3twYluRFmPkwRHU7wS2szzlu3dKvKDG09kXTyFmVEKKahJKQFfBg2M-EAm1T1UNugJ0HEqvVTp4i_NKCgZeiw31lC.jpg

The Kongu Vellalas of Coimbatore - A Historical Sketch of A Dominant Peasant Community,கட்டுரையாளர் : சுந்தரராஜ் மாணிக்கம் Sundararaj Manickam கட்டுரையாளர் பணி : கட்டுரைப் பிரிவு : Culture - பண்பாடு ஆய்விதழ் எண் : 016 - December 1979 பக்கங்கள் : 034 - 047, Journal of Tamil Studies

http://www.ulakaththamizh.org/JOTSpdf/016034047.pdf Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 08:41, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

to sitush/wikipedia administrator better delete the article

delete the entire article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.242.185.83 (talk) 03:46, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

this site must be in this page also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongunadu_Munnetra_Kazhagam — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.122.216 (talk) 16:09, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

proof to u with each and every which u removed in this article

//please remember that this is an encyclpedia that documents only the most relevant and solidly proven facts and opinions supported by multiple reliable sources.//

i like to discuss topic by topic

the term velir and ancient velir kings are related kongu vellala gounder

The Vēļāļar of the Tamil country (the descendants of the Vēļir) have retained the honorific till this day in their names (c.f kaņţar, kavuņţan and 'gouņder' (the last two from Ka.gauda<ganda).

here vellala gounder are know as kongu vellala gounder

Iravatham_Mahadevan(1970). "Dravidian Parallels in Proto-Indian Script". Journal of Tamil Studies (International Association of Tamil Research) 2 (1): 157–276. [[9]] Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 17:07, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

the difference between Vellalar and Kongu Vellalar needs to be clarified. I also dont know which group Iravatham Mahadevan refers to. do you have access to the entire page you are linking to? --CarTick (talk) 17:33, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

read here vellala sub caste who has gounder title is know as kongu vellalar or gounder and clarify about meaning of context. kongu vellalar is sub caste of vellalar who has gounder title,generally reffered as gounders(kavunders or kavunda etc..) i think so it will clarify you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vellalar_sub_castes Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 18:03, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

vellala with gounder title is only reffered to kongu vellala . Indians know this clearly and specially from Tamil Nadu state and south Indians Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 18:14, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

ok. so, Gounder is just a title. not a caste? i guess this issue came up sometime ago. --CarTick (talk) 18:19, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

//::ok. so, Gounder is just a title. not a caste?// the title is only given to only to Kongu Vellalar and Kongu Vellala Related Caste in South India .other caste uses this title for prrestige

"In Effect ,numerous communities add it to their name for reasons of prestige,hoping to resemble the dominant caste of the Kongu Vellalar Gounders ."[10] Porulur Poosan Kaviyarasu Gounder (talk) 18:28, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

//the title is only given to only to Kongu Vellalar and Kongu Vellala Related Caste in South India .other caste uses this title for prrestige// -Kongu Kaviyarasu Gounder. How dare this guy says like this. Every history that he provides here is a fake history can i break it with a proof...? Kongu vellalars were not the actual Gounders. I have strong proofs for it. fake shit --Vettuva perumannan 'Sathish Gounder' 05:07, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Recent changes

Per WP:NONENG please can someone provide English translations of all the non-English sources added in the last few hours. It is either do that or remove them/replace with an English language equivalent.

I would also like to know how the reliability of tamilartsacademy has been ascertained. It has in the past been said that this is basically a pet project of a single academic who has no particularly great standing in this sphere outside his own community and who has some truly fringe theories/intepretations. Again, alternative sources would be preferable in this situation. - Sitush (talk) 09:08, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Sitush, I think you have been misguided about Tamil Arts Academy and its writer R. Nagaswamy. R. Nagaswamy is an eminent and respected historian, archaeologist and epigraphist among international scholars.[11][12][13] He was the director of Department of Archaeology (TamilNadu), Government of India.[14] He is a friend of Iravatham Mahadevan and his writings are followed by eminent scholars.[15] He has written several books on history and he was consulted for expert advice by Allahabad High Court on Ayodhya case, one of most awaited cases in the history of India.[16] I am not sure if any other reference will be more valuable than R. Nagaswamy's. Anyway, please don't drag him into community circle just because his articles are referenced here. He is neither affiliated with Gounders nor with any community/group. I would recommend you to go through Tamil Arts Academy[17] and analyse his command over various subjects personally.

Regarding references, Non-English references are given from popular Tamil dailies namely Dinamalar and thatstamil. Per WP:NONENG, I will add relevant portions of the original and translations in the footnote. What we can do is, we will bring in someone who knows both Tamil and English and ask him to cross verify the translations.Tomatofarm (talk) 23:52, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

User;Sodabottle is someone who could do that, but I think might also be one of the people who had doubts about TAA. I am aware of who Nagaswamy is - his academic status does not obviate from the fact that some of the writings on his website have been considered as fringe, nor from the fact that they appear not to be peer reviewed. I know for sure that his website has been removed from articles before, although he does have a following. - Sitush (talk) 20:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I have removed much of the content and/or sources yet again. Will people please read the policies, including that of WP:SYNTH. I appreciate that the problems with the Gounder/Vellalar/KVG nomenclature probably do make this article difficult to source decently ... but that is not my problem. My problem is merely to keep things in line with policy. This may well be a classic example of systemic bias on en-WP, but unless you can change the policies then you are stuck with it. - Sitush (talk) 07:25, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

This article is being continuously targeted by anti-caste fanatics. These anti-caste fanatics target only particular dominant social group related articles by claiming that the contents are of systemic bias. They never interfer in certain other social group articles. Per WP:SOURCES and WP:VERIFY, the references provided here are reliable news papers, journals and magazines. Per WP:NOENG, non-english sources can be given with footnotes. None of the core policies are followed by this fanatic. This fanatic Sitush claims that he/she does not know Tamil but removed the Tamil references arguing that they are of extreme synthesis (his/her trustworthy can be understood from this fact).

This fanatic purposefully removed demographic spread of Kongu Vellalar and intentionally left the political section untouched so that viewers of the article will think that Kongu Vellalars are over represented in Government. This person refuses to come into discussion and ask for explanation in talk page. These persons are on a propaganda and they continuously keep on deleting the additions by various less experienced editors. This fanatic even accuses eminent historians as caste biased. There is no use in keeping remaining non-sourced contents also. It is true that, day by day, this article is becoming difficult to edit. There is no use in adding the contents. One or other day, the contents will be destroyed. Unless a third party who does not have any history on Indian related articles comes to mediate, this large social group of South India will be left unrepresented in Wikipedia. Tomatofarm (talk) 01:04, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

My comment about synthesis was based on the English translations provided, which amount to truncated sentences of around 8 - 10 words for articles that appeared to consist of several hundred words. As for the rest of your diatribe, well, WP:NPA. I really do not think that you have examined my contributions elsewhere in any depth. I have reverted your virtual blanking of the article. - Sitush (talk) 01:35, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Your credibility is being questioned. Stop adding unsourced contents. Unless a third party who does not have any history on Indian related articles comes to mediate, this large social group of South India will be left unrepresented in Wikipedia. Bring in a mediator Tomatofarm (talk) 01:59, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I have added no unsourced content. I have merely removed sources that do not comply with policies or support the statements to which they are attached. Please, try not to get frustrated by this. I am convinced that the info must be out there somewhere given the alleged significance of the KVG community, and surely it is better to find it? Sure, if nothing turns up then the article will need to be stripped ... but is it not worth a go? - Sitush (talk) 02:02, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Finally, you came into discussion. Well, will this not be true in my case ? You stripped most of the sections without asking for explanation even though I told you to discuss. I can also bring in sources to support the removed contents. If you are not satisfied you should ask for more citations. Removing will not solve the problem. Can you include those contents back and ask for more citations? Tomatofarm (talk) 02:25, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry if I had hurt you. Lets put that behind and concentrate on article. Honestly speaking, did you remove only sources? You re-framed each and every sentences to suit your own view. You removed etymology by referring Pulavar Raju as journalist. Who told you that he is a journalist? I can bet that there are no better Kongu historians than Pulavar Raju in the post-independent Indian era. In fact, the reference itself mentions him as an authority on Kongu subject.[18][19] Again, don't brand Pulavar Raju as caste oriented just because he explains about Gounders. Regarding Annamar Swamy, the reference cited might speak about movie. But the same article explains about Ponnar-Shankar for uninitiated persons like you. Read the references completely before removing them. The Tamil references might have hundred or thousand words. Since you don't understand Tamil, I translated only related portion. WP:NOENG policy asks only relevant portions to be provided as footnotes. The list extends like this. So bring back all the contents you removed and ask for more citations and explanations. I did go through some of your contributions on caste related articles. I am really shocked to see that some editor was forced to bring in more than 20 references to add a line in Gounder article. If that is the case, I am convinced that both will not be able to bring in those many references here Tomatofarm (talk) 04:53, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I have been engaging in discussion here for some time. This is an article that is known to be subject to a lot of POV pushing and socking, and for that reason it was protected even before my own involvement.

I think that we have a language problem here. For example, I did not call Raju a journalist: I said that the source was a news item. As it happens, the point was not sourced to Raju, although his name was mentioned elsewhere in the article - that is not good enough, especially bearing in mind just how poor Indian news sources often are. (For that matter, how poor many news sources are, period: I have been misquoted by journalists myself on more occasions than I care to recall!). As far as the translations go, the bits that you translated do not support the statements. I had already asked someone who is neutral to look into this issue prior to your last reinstatement of the dubious material - see User_talk:Sodabottle. They will get back to me.

As for my contributions elsewhere, it is not my problem if people fail to abide by the policies etc. What often happens with articles such as this is that the issues arise as a consequence of people having a conflict of interest: they know that they are right but cannot adequately verify it, and then get frustrated because others such as myself step in and insist that things are done the "Wikipedia way". I am not always right, obviously, but my actions on caste-related articles have been contested time and again at WP:ANI etc by such people and on every occasion the wider community has supported me. If you have a problem with that then you need to think in terms of changing Wikipedia policies, not attacking people. The systemic bias essay discusses some of these issues. - Sitush (talk) 13:20, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

This article is about Indian Social Group. You can't just say, Indian news are bad sources. WP:SOURCES, news papers are reliable sources. Sodabottle views cannot be considered neutral as he is already involved in controversy on KMP. He has personally admitted his disliking towards Kongu related stuff on User_talk:CarTick page. This is evident from his recent statement that Kongunadu research centre is for Gounder research. How can he brand like this ? Anyone doing research on Kongunadu will have atleast some words on Gounders. For that we cannot brand them as caste-oriented. The same thing you did for Nagasamy. Now for Pulavar Raju. I expected this already. Anyone saying about gounders are getting branded as caste-oriented. Unless, these editors change their mindset, this article is not going to improve. We should refrain ourselves from commenting on eminent historians. We editors cannot question the authenticity of prominent historians beyond a certain point. As I had mentioned earlier, unless a third party who does not have any history on Indian related articles comes to mediate, this large social group of South India will be left unrepresented in Wikipedia. Alright, where are the references for the sentences you re-framed ? Tomatofarm (talk) 14:47, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

It seems that you are still not understanding what I say, and you are still spraying unfounded accusations around. Please understand that while anyone can contribute to Wikipedia, this article has attracted attention from people who have much greater experience than you and, just maybe, they are correct. I have said time and again that one big problem for this article is that there are several communities who are sometimes called "Gounder", not just the KVG. This presents major sourcing problems. You are welcome to seek a third opinion. - Sitush (talk) 14:54, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Are there any decent English language sources out there? I do not mean Nagasamy's website (which is dreadful) but perhaps, for example, he has written some books that are published by university presses etc and are available online? Such works would have most likely been copyedited for the worst aspects of his own poor command of writing in English, thus removing the ambiguities etc. AS much as I am not keen on them, is there anything to be found in the British Raj ethnologies, such as Thurston's Castes and Tribes of Southern India? Honestly, I want to improve this article just as much as you do. - Sitush (talk) 15:11, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

My 11 December request to Sodabottle is at User_talk:Sodabottle#No_rush.2C_but_.... - Sitush (talk) 18:49, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Article rename

I am trying to source this thing and am finding far more English language sources for the phrase "Vellala[r] Gounder" than for "Kongu Vellala[r] Gounder", even when it might be the case that the content really does mean KVG. There is an article for Vellala Gounder but it redirects to this one. The hidtory of that article - here - and its talk page suggest that the redirect was not discussed. Although I have a lot of time for User:Kanatonian, who made that redirect in 2008, I am going to ask them to take a look at this again.

It seems to me that it would be much easier to handle everything under the old article name than under this name: it removes the problem of the sources that do not specifically refer to Kongu and it also enables us to consider those Vellalar Gounders who are outside the Kongu Nadu region. It does not mean that we ignore KVG entirely: they would still be mentioned as a prominent community.

Thoughts? - Sitush (talk) 20:43, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I am ready to share my thoughts but the approach of deleting the good faith edits, making the article more suitable to your view and inviting me for discussing more will not help us in resolving the issue. If you are really interested in improving this article, bring back the history and heroes section along with the references cited and include the tag which asks for full or more citations where ever necessary. We can continue the discussion after that Tomatofarm (talk) 22:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

No. They were inadequately sourced, and this has been explained to you. Those removals had nothing to do with faith - good, bad or indifferent - but were rather based on policy etc. Take that back to the section above. This section is regarding whether the redirect should be reversed, thus potentially enabling us to utilise sources that currently are proving to be awkward within the context of en-WP policies and guidelines. That aside, feel free to share your thoughts because that is the entire point of this section. The one issue does not predicate the other and, please, bear in mind that if at some point in the future the KVG element of Vellala Gounder were to become "excessive" then the relevant bits could always be forked, as opposed to redirected. - Sitush (talk) 00:13, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Reinstatement of poor contributions

This article has been subject to a lot of sockpuppetry in the past, which traces back to User:PONDHEEPANKAR. I have again reverted]] reinstatement of information that relates to those past socks. If you want to include it then you are going to have to justify it here first, pretty much one paragraph at a time. Far too much of the past attempts were original research and synthesis. - Sitush (talk) 21:03, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 29 May 2012

I have to edit the Kongu vellalar page because lot of information are missing in this article some persons intentionally delete tha contents in that article so i want to add more article about kongu vellala Gounders

Thank You

Anandhan88 (talk) 01:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Please be specific as to what you want to add to the article and provide reliable source references for the same. —SpacemanSpiff 06:15, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 June 2012

Bellow link can add support for "Ethnography of Kongu Vellalar". You can use it for citation. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=lCAVWCxwEKMC&pg=PA110&dq=Kongu&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a7_PT4PhDI_zrQfnm6yBDA&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Kongu&f=false Softkannan (talk) 20:59, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Mdann52 (talk) 16:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing and focus

This article concerns the Kongu Vellalar, not the Vellalar. If a source doesn't mention the Kongu then it is most likely verifying content that is inappropriate here. In addition, some of the recently-added sources are dubious. Given that this article has been subject to a lot of sockpuppeting by caste pov-pushers, we really must insist on the highest standards of relevance and verifiability. - Sitush (talk) 18:24, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 September 2016

Replace "lead by" in Wedding section by "led by". (Common misspelling of led)

87.81.205.186 (talk) 17:20, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

 Done - and several other spelling/English changes - Arjayay (talk) 17:30, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Notable dynasties

In the "Notable Dynasty" section of the article both Chera and Western Gangas are mentioned. How can it be so? Are there 2 factions of Gounders claiming descent from these dynasties? Nittawinoda (talk) 17:07, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Ganga dynasty Dheeran dhaya (talk) 12:15, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

See WP:V and WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 07:19, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Dynasty

Vellalars are from ganga clan They rules Tamilnadu and Ganga Dynasty They Are Suriya kula Kshatriyas in chola Dynasty and Suriya vanshi In Tamil Ganga Clan Dheeran dhaya (talk) 12:18, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

See WP:V, and note that Kongu Vellalar and Vellalar are not necessarily the same thing. - Sitush (talk) 07:19, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Poor sourcing

These edits reinstated material that was either unsourced or poorly sourced. For example, the films do not appear to be in the source cited and the 1.5 crore population figure is derived from a caste-based political party that was posturing in a news report - we need something better than that, and it needs to list the districts properly also. - Sitush (talk) 08:56, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

I have also just now reverted an anon's attempt to redirect the article to Naidu. I've no idea why they thought that was appropriate. Perhaps they will explain here. - Sitush (talk) 10:21, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Why is that kongu vellala Gounder is always reverted as Only kongu vellalar

As both are one in same Kongu1756 (talk) 16:01, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi Kongu1756 - the article title is Kongu Vellalar, and to avoid confusing readers who know nothing about the subject, that is the phrase we expect to see in bold in the opening line.
A different question, if "both are one in same", why are you bothering to try and change it in any case? - Arjayay (talk) 16:11, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2018

117.98.161.200 (talk) 05:08, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Zeebra R palanisamy Goundar belongs to sathanthai kulam fouder President of Kongu Trust in Tirupur.... advisor of Kongu Matric school... State President of Dheeran chinnamalai Peravai.... he is the first person who brought dhreen Chinnamali life history and picture in the state ...Also president of tamil desiya katchi...president of All goundars party..........

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — IVORK _Discuss 05:33, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Because it's our title and most of them know us only by that title..That is Gounder. Kongu1756 (talk) 16:01, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Singh is surname for Rajputs but still u can find people using titles like Rathore after singh...Why is that.It is the same here Kongu vellalars are always called as Gounders and it is important to mention it here! Kongu1756 (talk) 17:47, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 April 2021

The Kongu Vellalars place emphasis on cross-cousing marriage, which in older times often meant a adult man would be married to a grown woman. 2409:4072:6291:B08B:0:0:CF0:68B1 (talk) 18:57, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 19:01, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2021

this is fake history by other caste and political group 2409:4072:6D13:E9B3:5C9B:7CD5:55E:847C (talk) 12:11, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Bsoyka (talk · contribs) 14:10, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2021

Please add religion in template as Hinduism and Shaivasim in brackets. Since it is about a community. It gives correct idea. Indiaproject (talk) 13:59, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:06, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2021

This page has been vandalised by motivated caste groups. It seeks to glorify one community and diss the other.

There is no need for so much description about Vettuvar in a Kongu vellalar page.

History section is very inaccurate. It’s better to state only proven facts rather than elaborate based on inaccurate studies on such a sensitive issue.

And the article is silent on the population and demographic spread of Kongu vellalars who form more than 60 percent of the kongu area. Siddharthnavaladi (talk) 03:31, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:12, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 09 August 2021

Moved from WP:RFPP/E

 – ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:43, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Kongu Vellalar (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I came across Kongu Vellalar after many months and I found User:TheBrokenTusk (now blocked for abusing sockpuppets) has added a section Varna classification where he mistakenly added about another community called Vellalar. Also the a word "bhu-vaishya" is added in the etymology without proof. I request you to remove it because the account is sockpuppet and the content is for another community and spreads misinformation to the reader. 2409:4072:6D87:D62E:2D5F:FC1C:2FB9:20C6 (talk) 16:40, 9 August 2021 (UTC) Done,Thanks you, for improvement in the article Grayson Indica (talk) 03:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Religion and Communal Structure Of The Gounders

The Gounders are followers Shaivism based on the traditional form of Shaiva Siddhanta. In earlier times a sizable population followed seems to have followed Jainism for which evidences are temples are found even today at Vijayamangalam, Jinapuram, Vellode, Perundurai, Palani, Aivarmalai and Poondurai regions of Kongu Nadu. They were later reconverted by the Siddhar traditions (most of the Siddhars lived in Kongunadu) to Shaivasim. The Gounders follow the system of Gotram, popularly called Kootam in which persons from the same Kootam do not marry one another as they are considered to have descended from the same ancestor. Each Kootam has its own Kulaguru a brahmin, who is traditionally respected. Every Kootam also has one or more Kuladeivams or a Clan Deities.

References:

http://www.konguassociation.com/en/epages/religion.html
https://www.jstor.org/stable/44147510
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=pOqgYpCgCXsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=kongu+vellalar+saiva+siddhanta&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjekZqwx-LyAhWuzDgGHdrsDtMQ6AF6BAgFEAI
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=wcWfAAAAMAAJ&q=kongu+vellalar+AND+saiva+siddhanta&dq=kongu+vellalar+AND+saiva+siddhanta&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&printsec=frontcover&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7j427x-LyAhWnzjgGHY8kBUsQ6AF6BAgJEAI
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=Lm4tAQAAIAAJ&q=%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8A%E0%AE%99%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%81+%E0%AE%B5%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%B3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B3%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%B3%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D+AND+%E0%AE%9A%E0%AF%88%E0%AE%B5%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D&dq=%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%8A%E0%AE%99%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AF%81+%E0%AE%B5%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%B3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%B3%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%B3%E0%AE%B0%E0%AF%8D+AND+%E0%AE%9A%E0%AF%88%E0%AE%B5%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&printsec=frontcover&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjnlNHXxtjyAhVSX30KHTZ8AsIQ6AEwAHoECAoQAg (page 97) Tamil098 (talk) 10:48, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2021

Add the following paragralh. I have translated from tamil books.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:56, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2021

In the marriage section this narration stating barber bless the groom but this is false information please change that .

106.198.120.100 (talk) 11:17, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:09, 28 December 2021 (UTC)