Talk:Zografi Brothers

Untitled

I was planning to write that artilce, but I'll just edit this one.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:09, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Suppose this move is part of your wp:own strategy?Alexikoua (talk) 22:10, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua, are you going to write an article on Shpataraku and Selenica now saying that they are Greeks too? --sulmues talk contributions 22:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

wp:own strategy? No, my friend I don't own anything, I just want to write good articles. Sulmues, this is David Selenicasi, I actually got a DYK for that article.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:22, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't like to use Orguments. Suppose a number of German Universities and professors use the wrong non-Albanian names. But this proves the disruption it's created here, we have a clear wp:own and wp:idontlikeit compilation move.Alexikoua (talk) 22:25, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua, you get 9 results for Athanasios Zografi in Google books, and 78 results for Athanas Zografi. Also that source I added clearly says that they signed their works with the word Shqiptar. Instead of arguing about their nationality, all should focus on their work.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:27, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Depends on which language you choose. Can you give the exact quote on the work you claim they were Albanians?Alexikoua (talk) 22:33, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

You may be right about their origin, but you need to prove it. Actually in the picture of Kircheeiner from Vithkuq (p. 50) I dont see the word Shqiptar.Alexikoua (talk) 22:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

From the book [1]: Auffalend ist, dass ihre Werke nicht nur mit ihren Namen, sondern auch mit dem Zusatz Shqiptar(Albaner) underzeichneten-ein Hinweis auf ihre Nazionalitat, der gleichzeitig eine Abgrenzung une Stold auf ihre Herkunft, erkennen lasst.

You say that you know German, so you won't need me to translate that for you in English. That is very clear about their origin.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:42, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I've verified the part since the review of this travel guide is limited in googlebooks. However, its odd since the signature in Kosmas & Damianos church doesn't include that.Alexikoua (talk) 23:00, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Picture

A picture of their works would be useful, could someone find a public domain picture to upload?--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:58, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's not a hq image. I also added another source for their nationality, which is not the point of the article and unfortunately we have consumed too much time on it.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

So since we have spent too much time on it, why did you go through the trouble? Athenean (talk) 23:16, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I said that we spent too much time, not that we shouldn't clarify it at all. After all this is an encyclopedia and we must be as precise as possible.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:38, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Signature

They signed their names in Greek, so their names should be transliterated accordingly. We should stick to the original as much as possible. Athenean (talk) 23:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Most orthodox painters of the time used the Greek language. In English wikipedia we're translating not transliterating.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:17, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

In addition Albanian orthodox people used the Greek alphabet (read Istanbul alphabet in Albanian alphabet). The use of the Greek alphabet doesn't mean they were writing in Greek: it means that they were using the Greek alphabet. In this page you are using Latin letters but you ain't speaking latin. --sulmues talk contributions 23:19, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

No, they signed their works in Greek. "Δια χειρός Κωνσταντίνου και Αθανασίου από Κορυτσά" is Greek, not Albanian with Greek characters. I'm not saying they were Greek, of course, but we should be as faithful to the original signature as possible. Athenean (talk) 23:23, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Guys, all I'm saying is that we have the Greek text and what is needed isn't a transliteration but a translation.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:25, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

It is a translation, and the most faithful one possible. I don't see how you can possibly be threatened by that. The article says several times over that they were Albanian. I don't think anyone who reads this will make the dreadful mistake of thinking they were Greek at this point. Relax. Athenean (talk) 23:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

No, that's not my point and I don't know why you would think that. That is a transliteration because the name used in English is Korçë not Korytsa, and the names are Kostandin and Athanas.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:35, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I know the difference between translation and transliteration. They are both translations, just mine is more faithful to the original. And forgive me for thinking that you do seem extremely worried that people might think they're Greek, after all, you are the one who rushed in here within minutes of the article's creation to make sure that the article says they were Albanian, Albanian, and by the way, Albanian, providing multiple source just in case. Athenean (talk) 23:41, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Well you and Alexikoua asked for as many sources as possible to verify it, so I added sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:57, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The original is in Greek and the translation is in English. And it is very faithful with Korce, not Korytsa. Made the change [2] to Korca as per name of article. --sulmues talk contributions 00:24, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

But the Zografi brothers themselves signed "Korytsa", not "Korce", therefore the former is more faithful. As long as it is in quotes, that is how it should be. Athenean (talk) 00:28, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Weren't they speaking Greek? In Greek is "Korytsa", in English it's "Korce". --sulmues talk contributions 00:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, in the Ottoman context, most English-language sources refer to it either by its Greek or Turkish name, almost never by its Albanian name [3]. I'm pretty sure they didn't sign "Δια χειρός Κωνσταντίνου και Αθανασίου από Korce".

An artist's signature shouldn't change: Kirchhainer makes an exact translation of the text on p. 2. Alexikoua (talk) 06:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

That's a transliteration not a translation, if we were dealing with 2 painters from Athens, we wouldn't translate their signature as "x and y from Athina" but "x and y from Athens", the same principle applies in this case too.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:14, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

If 'Athina' was widely accepted as an alternative in English bibliograpgy, yes, but it isn't. On the other hand Korytsa is an alternative form of Korce as Athenean proved. We should be carefull on the signature, like Kirchhainer's translation: aus der Hand von Athanasios und Konstantinos aus Korytsa. Similar examples of artists' signatures are: El Greco ->The Greek, Michelangelo -> Michael Angel (we keep the original form).Alexikoua (talk) 10:04, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

That's German not English, the English word is Korçë and in the example the English word Athens not Athina, that's a transliteration.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Accidentally, the German word for the city is Korce too, but as we see Kirchheiner translates the signatures 'von Korytsa', however she uses the term 'Korce' to refer to the city in several other pages. Alexikoua (talk) 13:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Because it is a transliteration and not a translation. When you make a transliteration you just write the same thing with a different alphabet.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:52, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Why do you keep repeating that like it's a bad thing? Is there something wrong with a transliteration? Your source does exactly that, therefore so should we. I thought ethnicity wasn't important to you anyway. Athenean (talk) 20:55, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I didn't add any transliteration. We have the Greek text and the reasonable thing to do is to add a translation of the text not a transliteration.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 21:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Kirchhainer says that this is a translation of the text on p. 2.Alexikoua (talk) 21:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)