Talk:Lanai (architecture)

Manual of Style

Per inquiry, my purpose in this edit was to:

1. Remove an unnecessary dab hatnote per WP:DLINKS: if a title is already clearly distinguished (as this one is with the parenthetical) then it is unnecessary to add a disambiguating hatnote.
2. Remove an out of place, and I would say unnecessary, Wiktionary plaque.

It comes to mind that "Hawaiian language" may be a poor parenthetical disambiguator since the other meaning (the island) is also in the Hawaiian language. Perhaps "porch" would be better, and this article should be moved to lanai (porch)? Also, per MOS:LAYOUT, or Wikipedia:Wikimedia sister projects, if a link to Wiktionary is desired, it should go in the last section, or as an inline link if alone in the External links section. ENeville (talk) 00:02, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the proper term is "architecture" not "porch". I will ask Maile66 to respond here. Viriditas (talk) 01:38, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

FWIW, despite my comment below, if the article is retained a dab is certainly necessary; both lānai and Lānaʻi are commonly written without diacritics (and indeed the original creator of this article spelled it incorrectly, as lānaʻi; I'd always thought it was lanai myself), so the fact that they're different in the title isn't really relevant. I agree that "Hawaiian language" is an awkward modifier though. KarlM (talk) 22:54, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Is this article even necessary given that there's a wiktionary article? The article is no more than a definition (it was only created a few days ago) and it's hard to see how it's going to be expanded much further. KarlM (talk) 22:37, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

It's a good point. I think it could be useful if we can show that a Hawaiian porch is different than any other porch. Otherwise, I don't see a need for it. Viriditas (talk) 00:04, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

If the article were at "lanai", as Lanai is, then a dab hatnote would be appropriate. But since it's at lānai (Hawaiian language), or should be at something like lanai (architecture), then it's already clear that other articles exist with the name "lanai". On the other hand, if it were at lānai, then a dab hatnote would be appropriate, because the reader might not appreciate the distinction in spelling. As to content, I think article should persist. A number of short articles on similar architectural features exist, e.g. patio, rain porch, and verandah. It might be preferable to unite them in one article, but I leave that debate for another day, and in the meantime this article would exist according to type. ENeville (talk) 00:43, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Best practice is to merge and redirect perma-stubs that show no sign of expansion within an allotted amount of time. I don't think that time has come yet, so I think we should allow this stub to remain for at least another six months. Viriditas (talk) 01:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I added in a couple of not particularly informative content+sources. It would be more interesting if the article creator could tell us something about the role of the lanai .. but there is enough out there to be more than a stub, which means change the disambiguator to (architecture) for sure. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:42, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move. Cúchullain ^t/c 15:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

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Lānai (Hawaiian language) → Lanai (architecture) – Article should use spelling "lanai" per WP:UE. Parenthetical "Hawaiian language" does not distinguish topic from island (Lanai), so modifier "architecture" is proposed. ENeville (talk) 16:37, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Survey

• Support, per Honolulu Star-Advertiser. Kauffner (talk) 04:35, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Question ENeville, by proposing "Use English" are you proposing that the English translation of Lānai (laanai), is "veranda, porch, lanai (single a)"? Because the article footnotes do not provide any support that "Lanai (single a)" also exists in English as an English word. Specifically the evidence you would need to supply to argue Lanai was not Hawaiian but was an English word would be an OED dictionary entry "Lanai, a type of porch, from Hawaiian Lānai/Laanai" or alternatively a reliable-for-statement-being-made source which spells some Category:Hawaiian words and phrases with ʻokina and long vowel aa Polynesian macron ā, but when it comes to Lanai spells it short-'a' next door to a true Hawaiian word with a macron or ʻokina. I just had a brief look and Fodors Hawaii 2012 seems to treat Lānai as a Hawaiian word, giving it same treatment as others with ʻokina. Where is your evidence that Lanai (short a, not Lānai/Laanai) is an English word? I've never heard Lanai used in continental USA of a Oregon or South Carolina porch, or a patio in Christchurch or Leeds, for example. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Where do you get "laanai" from? And yes, I would say in that it is in English. I would actually support this move despite the Hawaii MOS rec to use diacritics because it's almost never used in a Hawaiian language context or with the proper pronunciation (much like ʻukulele, which is invariably pronounced yoo-ka-lay-lee instead of ʻoo-koo-lay-lay). KarlM (talk) 01:05, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

@KarlM Isn't ā aa? I just saw it on a property webpage, I see it's not at all common. If I was providing evidence for Lanai being an English word (which I think is the proposer's job) I'd cite http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lanai, the only problem being wariness of M-W competence, plus usage still being entirely anchored in Hawaii. But normally citing "WP:UE" means "move lanai to veranda" - which is 100% English, despite being from Hindi बरामदा baraamdaa. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:46, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

No, if diacritics aren't used then it's just written without them; it's not like German where Münster becomes Muenster. The macron indicates a long vowel (and stressed on the syllable if it wasn't already), and in any case, as noted, in English it's usually pronounced incorrectly for Hawaiian (i.e. as if the macron wasn't there). KarlM (talk) 06:55, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oxford spells it "lanai" as well, so there shouldn't be any issue of spelling it with a diacritic, double "a" or any other way. This article should probably be merged with "porch" and "verandah". Kauffner (talk) 13:49, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Clearly not a Hawaiian language. Spelling per OED and others. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:41, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There are compelling arguments on both sides here and in the last RM, but English language sources appear to usually write the word without the macron—even recent ones, to KAVEBEAR's point. MOS:RETAIN might carry the day but the case hasn't been made that the "variety" of English used in Hawaii writes this word with a macron; in fact the only Hawaiian source I can find in either this or the previous RM writes it without the macron. The assertion that the phrase is almost always used to describe verandas in Hawaii probably would bolster the MOS:RETAIN argument, but I can't imagine why else this would matter. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

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lanai (architecture) → lānai (architecture) – The Kahakō is integral to the meaning of the word. Lanai means the island and lānai means the porch. For the same reason we have Cancún instead of Cancun, the Kahakō should be used. See here. KAVEBEAR (talk) 10:42, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• Clarification, that would be Lānai (architecture), right? Apteva (talk) 00:39, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Support - It's a bit different we don't have "Cancun" because no quality English source would spell a Mexican town without an accent. Wheras the argument above is that "lanai" (as opposed to Lānaʻi the island) has entered the English language and is no longer a Hawaiian word. To me this argument is weak given that the sources all seem to discuss porches on Hawaii itself, so it's as much a British or Continental-American word as "Māori people" is British. Obviously if this was a French or German word we'd retain the kahakō, but generally we don't treat Asian cultures/languages/spellings with the same respect we treat European ones. For whatever reason. However there is one thing that could have been given in the above:

When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, it is maintained in the absence of consensus to the contrary. With few exceptions (e.g. when a topic has strong national ties or a term/spelling carries less ambiguity), there is no valid reason for such a change.

This RM to MOS:RETAIN passes that test plus is a topic has strong national ties and a term/spelling which carries less ambiguity. In ictu oculi (talk)

Oh yeah. Stupid me. I forgot the island also had the kahako.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:14, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Oppose - I generally work to put the accent marks in, but lanai is fully a loanword into English. Unlike place names, proper names, or Hawaiian names for plants or animals, it's virtually never used in a Hawaiian context or written with a kahakō, just like ukulele is never written ʻukulele. And loanwords from European languages, like resume, are almost never written with accent marks except in a very few stodgy literary sources. KarlM (talk) 08:22, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, per Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, Oxford, and Collins. The title should tell the reader what the correct spelling of the word is. Not one English-language source has been presented to support the proposed spelling. "Lanai" is just another word for porch, so there is no reason for this to be a separate article. Kauffner (talk) 09:11, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
  • That is just because Hawaiian kahako and okina are rarely used in old sources. The correct usage is becoming the norm now a day, ex. "In 1995 the United States Board on Geographic Names began changing its longtime policy and is now using ʻokina and kahakō in the Geographic Names Information System".--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.