Talk:Spanish football clubs in international competitions

Inter-Cities Fairs Club 1955-58

I INCLUDE HERE A EXCHANGE THAT TOOK PLACE ON THESE TWO USERS' TALK PAGE.

Hello. I noticed your change to the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup page, and read the reference you added. I agree that all teams entered in the first few editions of that competition, not just the Barcelona team, were there as representatives of their city. Some cities, like London, were represented by a team including players from many London clubs. Some cities, like Birmingham, were represented by a team from just one club: that isn't what the City of Birmingham authorities wanted, but Birmingham City F.C. were the only club willing to let their players take part.

I've also read that a player from RCD Espanyol was included in the team representing the city of Barcelona, but if there was, he never played: according to the teams listed in the Mundo Deportivo match reports, every player appearing for the Barcelona team in the 1955-58 edition of the Fairs Cup was a Barcelona player at the time he played. If you can show specific evidence for an Espanyol player being included, or point out the one I missed, then please do: I'd appreciate the clarification. But without such evidence, I think it's misleading to call it a "Barcelona XI", when all other city teams described in that format were made up of players from more than one club. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. I only mentioned the RCD Espanyol player because everywhere I could find, there is mention of him, so I assumed that this is an undisputed fact. Nevertheless, as you well said, I've never been able to match a name for such player. My changing the name to Barcelona XI is not based so much in the player, as in the team wearing Barcelona City colors and shield. It might have been the F. C. Barcelona team, but they were not, at least in this first edition, representing the club itself, but the city of Barcelona.

Now, if you look at this comment in the discussion page for the F. C. Barcelona article, you'll find an old post of mind defending the fact that it was F. C. Barcelona who won the cup. In the article for F. C. Barcelona, I think it is right to give credit, where credit is due, and the FCB did indeed win the cup. Nevertheless, since this article is for all Spanish clubs in Europe, I saw appropriate, as all actual references state, to mention that this Fairs Cup was in fact won by a Barcelona XI, a team for the city of Barcelona, regardless of where the players come from. What do you think?--Coquidragon (talk) 12:56, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I understand the point you're making. But in the first edition of the Fairs Cup, every team was entered by the city hosting the trade fair in order to represent that city: that's just how the competition worked. It wasn't something particular to the team representing the city of Barcelona. I believe the Birmingham City FC players representing the city of Birmingham also wore the arms of the city on their shirts.

Conventionally, English-language sources for the 55-58 Fairs Cup, e.g. RSSSF, refer to single-club teams by the name of the club, and to the mixed-club teams by the name "<city> XI". There's a piece on the UEFA website confirming the 55-58 Barcelona team as containing only FCB players, and also confirming that all teams in that edition were representatives of trade fair cities. So changing the name to "Barcelona XI" in the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup page without changing all the others to the "<city> XI" format would be treating that city's team inconsistently. And changing them all to "<city> XI" would be consistent, but would go against the way they're generally referred to in reliable English-language sources. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

As to the La Liga clubs in Europe page, I'd probably call it FC Barcelona, but with a clear note, preferably visible at the table entry rather than buried in the references where nobody reads, and sourced to a specific English-language reference, explaining that in that edition of the competition, FCB had the honour of representing the city of Barcelona rather than themselves as a club. If the team that won the initial edition of the Fairs Cup was purely a city of Barcelona representative XI and not FCB, it probably shouldn't really appear on a page about La Liga clubs at all ;-) cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

About the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup article, I completely agree with keeping consistency among all cities/clubs. Nevertheless, sourcing is also very important, and I don't have sources for the other teams. I only had a source for the Barcelona City team. This brings me to a different point, which is that the first tournament was indeed a tournament for cities, not for clubs. I do think all teams should be changed to "City XI." Still, if you want me to change it back (or you want to do it yourself), I will agree.

About the La Liga clubs in Europe article, there is not a consistency problem, since there are only two teams mentioned, London and Barcelona, and by adding the "XI" to Barcelona, the consistency is kept. If I put an explicit comment in the body instead of the reference section, which as you well say, is never read by many, then would it be reasonable to keep the "Barcelona XI?"

Thanks for the exchange. When we finish the dialogue, I'll move the conversation to the Talk page of the La Liga clubs in Europe article for historical purposes.--Coquidragon (talk) 06:51, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Returning to the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and 1955–58 Inter-Cities Fairs Cup pages, how about a compromise? change all the teams to the "<city> XI" format, but, where that city was represented by a club side, as Barcelona, Birmingham, Milan, putting something like "represented by Birmingham City F.C." in parentheses afterwards. Rough idea of possible layout below. It's factually accurate, in that all entrants in the first edition were indeed teams representing cities, but follows the sources in that it includes the club in cases where the city was represented by a club side. It's hard to tell from English newspapers of the time whether Barcelona was generally referred to as the place or the football club, because the FC/CF is never included. They always called the Milan representative team Internazionale, and in fixtures and results, tended to put Birmingham City (which is a football club) rather than Birmingham (which might be either). The Barcelona XI (represented by...) would work equally well at the La Liga clubs in Europe page.

Season	Home team	Score	Away team	Venue
1955–58 Details	(ENG) London XI	2–2	(ESP) Barcelona XI (represented by FC Barcelona)	Stamford Bridge, London
	Barcelona XI	6–0	London XI	Camp Nou, Barcelona

I can't find any reliable source for an Espanyol player being included. The UEFA piece mentioned above said the Barcelona XI won it "using players purely from FC Barcelona", and you'd think RCD Espanyol might complain if UEFA were writing their player out of history. And this, which may not be reliable in the WP sense but reads like it knows what it's talking about, says Espanyol were asked to be part of a joint squad but refused (which is exactly what happened in Birmingham, when Aston Villawere asked but refused). Please feel free to copy/move this conversation to relevant talk page(s). regards, Struway2 (talk) 10:47, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I like your proposal. Don't worry about the RCD Espanyol player, since the current source doesn't mention him.--Coquidragon (talk) 06:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Meetings

Was thinking of adding a list of the European fixtures played between two Spanish clubs, unless anyone objects? Doubt this has been brought up on the here before but maybe on the English equivalent article?

And does anyone have an opinion whether this should be split between competitions or just chronological order? I was thinking of the latter just to make the list more concise in terms of display?

Will post on WP:FOOTY as well if I font hear any response, just to avoid adding stuff which others don't feel is worthwhile. Thanks. Crowsus (talk) 18:38, 17 November 2017 (UTC)