Talk:Glossary of Dune (franchise) terminology

Creation of this article

I created this article primarily as a central resource for explanations of what I'll call the 'minor' Dune terminology used throughout Dune articles but often not explained (like 'inkvine' or 'nullentropy'). Information on such topics is important but in many cases does not warrant an individual article.

There are certainly some Dune terminology stubs (and stubs yet to be created) that I feel should be merged with this list; I would say that any stub of only a couple of sentences has a place here. If readers are simply redirected from where a main article would be, a full article could be created in the future should need arise, and links in other articles would remain accurate. (see Nullentropy, my own article which I have merged here)

For the sake of being comprehensive, I am including as many Dune terms as possible, with brief explanations and links to their main articles. My thinking is that, like me, once a reader is on this page he or she may be interested in looking into other terms. TAnthony 23:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't expect you to keep track of three-year-old talk page sections, but for posterity: good call. The somewhat preposterous complexity of the author's world-building is a central feature of his works. This list helps get that complexity across to our readers well enough that we'd be hard pressed to do the same in pure prose. Attempts would likely either be too distant and sterile to give much of a feel, or get taken down as OR.
The list also helps in the often unappreciated, but essential, task of describing what actually goes on in those works. Since they're about overintelligent people hatching "plans within plans" using lots of made-up words, it's help we need. --Kizor 21:15, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Maula Pistol

I may be wrong but I thought that Maula Pistols fired pellets rather than darts. In Children of Dune when Jessica is attacked with one it leaves a round hole in her robe which a dart would not. They could also be modified to hold poisons but the primary use was simply as a projectile weapon. I wanted to check this against someone else's knowledge so I did not edit the main article. 195.137.108.52 07:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The definition used here is lifted verbatim from the glossary in the back of Dune; if anyone comes across any contradicting information in the texts, by all means add it (with a reference, of course). There are several seeming inconsistencies/errors in the Dune series. See Discrepancies between Dune novels. TAnthony 15:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

From House Corrino, page 3 (Kindle edition):

Maula pistols would be far too noisy in these enclosed spaces.

From House Harkonnen, page 590 (Kindle edition):

The remaining student-Wod Sedir, nephew of the King of Niushe-delivered a sharp kick to send a smoking maula pistol up into the air. His opponent had fired it repeatedly, but missed his weaving target. Wod Sedir followed through with his heel under the Grumman's jaw, shattering his neck, then grabbed the pistol as it fell and turned toward the other Grummans-but the pistol clicked on an empty charge.

The Maula pistols described in these passages seem to be very similar to repeating cartridge firearms of today. They cannot possibly be spring loaded dart guns. I believe the glossary is a misprint, actually describing a flèchette pistol instead of a Maula pistol.

There is, however another possible explanation. Since Maula means slave, a Maula pistol may simply indicate any low-tech pistol that slaves might carry.DrHenley (talk) 00:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

I would hardly think it wise to allow slaves to carry any kind of pistol.--172.190.229.228 (talk) 07:17, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Ornithopter

The description is at best incomplete. An ornithopther has jet pods; my impression was that of a configurable wing aircraft. /roger.duprat.denmark.

Re: Deletion tag/Copyright issues

This page is an important part of the Dune series of articles, as it defines many key terms that would otherwise exist as a host of stubs. I do see, however, the copyright issue. So, assuming this will solve the problem, I will go through the page and rewrite as many definitions as possible, and quote and reference the rest (and, or course, any of Herbert's phrasing at all). I will need a few days to accomplish this, of course! Please post here any related suggestions that would help in my efforts. Thanks. TAnthony 01:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've cited every direct quote from the Dune glossary as well as obvious rewrites derived directly from that source. I've also made some slight edits in some cases with copyright issues in mind. I know further edits, additions and rewrites will only improve the article, and it seems to not violate any policy at this point. TAnthony 06:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Great. Much happier with that now. Pete Fenelon 15:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Arabic

Though we know that Herbert was heavily influenced by Arabic language and culture, I have removed the following Arabic definitions added to the list:

• Al-Lat: From Allat, a goddess in pre-Islamic Arabian mythology (added after the original discussion) — TAnthony^Talk 20:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
• Amtal: From Arabic Amthal meaning "example"
• Ayat: The Arabic word ayah (plural: ayat) means "omen/sign" or "miracle."
• Baraka: Arabic for "blessing"
• Burhan: Arabic for "proof"
• Caid: Arabic for "leader"
• Muad'Dib: In Arabic, Muad'Dib (from the word, Adab meaning discipline) is a teacher, a promoter of virtues in the literal sense
• Umma: Arabic for "summit"
• Usul: Arabic for "pedigree"

I feel that providing these definitions is original research and implies that Herbert intended these meanings to apply to his terms. We all know he probably did, but that connection can't be made here without a source. TAnthony 14:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I am also moving the following recent addition to "kanly" to this Talk page: In Turkish, kanlı means 'bloody'.

Please refer to my reasons above. TAnthony 23:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

More Arabic:

• Aba: From the Arabic word ‘abā’, meaning a loose cloak.
• Ayat: From the Arabic word آيات āyāt, literally meaning 'signs'.
• Baraka: From Arabic بركة barakah 'blessing', in the sense of 'charisma or supernatural power attributed to holy men and women'.
• Bashar:From Arabic بشر bashar 'human being'.
• Burhan: From Arabic برهان burhān 'evidence, proof'.

We cannot make these assumptions without sources showing that Herbert intended these meanings/connotations, no matter how obvious they may seem. TAnthony 23:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Noting a similarity between these terms and modern Arabic or other languages is not, in and of itself, original research, IMO. How is that different from, say, converting between units of measurement? An Arabic/English dictionsry could be cited, if you wish. Wachholder 07:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

You're missing the point. No one is doubting the translation, but we're talking about fiction, so you simply cannot make the unsourced argument that, for example, when Herbert used "Usul" he intended the Arabic translation of "pedigree" to somehow apply. Defining the word in an article about Herbert's terms does that. It's not the some as converting measurement because meters and feet are real-world concepts with established comparisons. If I write a novel and my characters use the word fleur (French for flower) to refer to food, there is no way for the reader to know if I intended the connotation or if I just liked the sound of the word. Defining the word in an article about my novel would imply that I meant the definition to somehow apply.

By the way, I am not just going on an individual crusade here, this issue has been discussed elsewhere regarding Dune articles. I will say that there are some items here I could reasonably accept because Herbert actually defined his own terms in the glossary and the Arabic terms are pretty much identical; aba and burhan, for example. But I think in those cases it's preferable that the Arabic be referenced in a footnote. However, defining bashar or kanli is making an assumption we cannot make. TAnthony 14:28, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... I read this over and considered it carefully. I'm afraid your argument makes no sense to me, friend TAnthony. You seem to be assuming universality of whatever theory of literary criticism you are holding to, although whether this has any bearing on Wikipedia editorial policy remains a leap of faith at best. Regardless, I have no desire to debate any further with you over this; I had simply wanted to share some (easily verifiable) factual information that I'd felt was of interest to Herbert readers. You may now stick in the proverbial fork. Salām. Johanna-Hypatia 03:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, I do not propose we assume that every meaning is directly intended by Herbert. Frank Herbert clearly drew inspiration for many terms from Arabic[1]. No source will ever emerge that can reveal exactly where Herbert came up with every term. If there is an obvious similarity, why would it be OR to note it? Do you think it is COINCIDENCE that all these terms are almost identical to Arabic words of similar meaning? I have spent many, many hours trying to figure out the Arabic roots of terms in Herbert's work, so the thought that you are removing these thing from article in some quest for obscure wikipurity is extremely frustrating to me. Wachholder 06:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Wachholder, if it interests you, I could easily share the Arabic etymologies with you in some private communication... or maybe in some online forum of Herbert readers somewhere, since information on Arabic is banned from here of all places. It was intuitive to me that interested readers like you would want to look up the Arabic words used by Herbert, and I just wanted to make your search easy. This ban just does not make any sense at all. Calling it OR is clearly a misuse of the OR concept. I didn't make up any of this, it's taken verbatim from Hans Wehr's famous dictionary. If I had remembered to add a footnote link, would that have made it more acceptable? My work was so abruptly deleted when I had just begun. Johanna-Hypatia 02:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Wachholder, I do see your point and as I believe I indicated somewhere, in cases where Herbert's definition and the actual Arabic word are identical, there is surely a way to include the info. And to answer your question above with another question, who decides what is "obvious" when a similarity is less than "identical"? The fact that you've dedicated many hours to the task in itself tells me the information isn't so obvious or readily available. And I do want to say, for the record, that I personally agree with many of the correlations made to Arabic terms, but my opinion doesn't make them any more verifiable. I'm going to add a sentence to the article itself (using your source) noting that Herbert's terms were presumably influenced by Arabic, and certainly we can continue the discussion about specific terms. And I agree that it is frustrating to "know" something and not be able to add it here, but the very same OR policy also keeps random editors from adding "Dune is the best novel ever written" or "Dune is too long and boring."

Johanna-Hypatia, I am continually frustrated by your insistence on framing this as a "ban" on Arabic, or a dismissal of your work. I have explained that no one is doubting the veracity of the translations or definitions, just their correlation with Herbert's works. It may seem like nitpicking but this is a perfect example of OR. — TAnthony^Talk 20:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, this is my favorite example of trying to translate Herbert's names/words into Arabic to bring "meaning" to them ("Feyd rautha" = "flood of dung" LOL). Obviously, this kind of stretch requires editor analysis and interpretation, which is unacceptable regardless of the accuracy of the translations of individual words.—  TAnthony ^Talk 20:23, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

As noted above, I added a sentence to this article noting the possible Arabic influence on Herbert's work, using the source provided by Wachholder.

I have also tagged similar "translation" sections in Kwisatz Haderach and Gom jabbar, and placed a link on the associated talk pages to direct discussion on the topic here. — TAnthony^Talk 23:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

After nearly a year with no citations related to Herbert, I've removed the trivial OR attempts at etymology in the above two articles, as well as Farad'n Corrino.— TAnthony^Talk 05:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the Kwisatz Haderach one isn't that bogus. We should be able to find a source for it. As for the other two pages, though, I agree completely. --SandChigger (talk) 08:32, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Fish Speaker

Are these not descendents of the Tleilaxu (Bene Tleilax)? The article on the Fishspeakers seems to contradict what I have read in the later F.Herbert novels. Don't the Honoured Matres merge with the Fishspeaker council who are an offshoot of the BT? -- maxrspct ping me 16:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The Fish Speaker article is indeed in need of work, but the Fish Speakers themselves have no Tleilaxu origins. They are only prominently featured in Frank Herbert's God Emperor of Dune and are assembled by Leto II. In Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse Dune Herbert notes that the Fish Speakers are basically disbanded; when the mysterious Honored Matres arrive, people guess that they are some evolved Fish Speaker-Bene Gesserit hybrid but are not sure. It is established in Hunters of Dune by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson that the "missing link" of the Matres is Tleilaxu women (arguably, Frank Herbert hinted at it and it was probably in his notes, used to write Hunters.) TAnthony 16:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I have PDF of the encyclopedia .. but it's quite vague apart from outlining it's roots in the decline of the Fremen. It is a miltary body apparently. But then the Encyclopedia is only half-canonical - was sanctioned by but not written by F.Herbert. Anyway Frank was enthusiatic about Dune mythology being developed by others. Perhaps specific references to the encyclopedia would be needed for the wiki additions based on that information. Cheers. -- maxrspct ping me 17:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't have my Dune Encyclopedia handy, but is there anything unique in it worth adding to the article? I think the basis of any Dune article should always be the novels themselves, with the Encylclopedia and adaptations as additional/ancillary sources if necessary. And yes, anything from the Encyc should have the proper reference or be in its own section, like in the Butlerian Jihad article. TAnthony 17:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Theres a lot of bumpf or padding about the decline of Fremen. But these parts are fairly interesting: -- maxrspct ping me 23:23, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

"A silver fish was once worn by members of a secret society called Aram-el, but was abandoned in order to conciliate a powerful rival organization that was jealous of the fish's use as an emblem. Aram-el's need to defend itself gave rise to a military faction which gradually absorbed other groups and grew to become the Fish Speakers. The first leader of this group had a series of dreams in which one such silver emblem grew large and lifelike and began to speak, warning of future trials and cautioning the leadership to develop military prowess for religious purposes, although these were at first obscure. It was the second generation leader to whom was revealed that the purpose of Aram-el was to defend a god-king.... Thereafter members being initiated into Aram-el took their vows by placing their hands upon a large silver fish, and the most religious of the group secretly reverenced the same object as a fetish. No wonder that this fish spoke to them in dreams, and the more devout could verify their sincerity by reports of those dreams. As time-passed, other rituals and more precise vows replaced these early forms, but the military women who protect and defend the God-king were thereafter known as Fish Speakers and became Brides of the God-King, in preparation of that day when such a visitation would occur..."

"...The decline of the military might of the Fremen army took a much longer time, was marked by no notorious single incident, and was hidden from view by official decision. Hence its story has only recently come to light, and has been pieced together by the patient researchers of the military section, of the Library Confraternity, to whose efforts we owe these startling revelations about the true reasons for the formation of the Fish Speakers...

"...Fremen tribal membership was extended to children born off-world who were acknowledged by Fremen soldiers. The first such recognition on the planet Zimaona occurred in 10214 (only the rolls for Zimaona have yet been located among the ridulian crystals). The number of acknowledgments and children born of legal marriages to Zimaonian natives increases steadily over the next twenty years, and it is among the transfer records from Zimaona that we see for the first time, beginning in 10233, folders with a beige tab, showing that the soldier in question refused return to Arrakis and was mustered out on the planet. The use of the beige tab was an innovation restricted to Zimaona and suppressed even there after just two years. It may be that the beige tabs were having a destructive effect on morale — 6,000 soldiers refused return in those two years — and the folders of those who ended their enlistments on Zimaona returned to the use of the green tab specified for general purposes elsewhere throughout the empire. The total number of Fremen who refused return to Arrakis, therefore, is buried in the mass of general transfer records, but their numbers are hinted at in the two-year innovation of Zimaona."

Qizarate

Dune Messiah is filled with references to the Qizarate religion, but there is no definition here (Dune terminology) or on the Dune (Religion) page. If you have a good understanding of this could you add it to the appropriate pages?

qiz / phiz - worshippers of the "head" / face that covers the N sky , q.v. ... and which the PS, Templars were enamoured of also - big phiz , 2nd dyn ah stee 69.121.221.97 (talk) 00:54, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Ayat / Buran

Hi, The words Ayat and Buran refer to eachother for explanation that neither really gives. Can someone please add to this? Robin.lemstra (talk) 10:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Dune "Terminology of the Imperium" references...

Might it not be more efficient to include a note at the top of the page to the effect that "except where noted otherwise, information comes from the "Terminology of the Imperium" glossary included at the end of Dune."?

Just wondering. ;) --SandChigger (talk) 09:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

That was how it was originally, and someone tagged it as inadequately sourced. — TAnthony^Talk 18:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Of plaz and plasteel

I realize I'm probably wrong (often am), but I had always assumed that the "plasteel" of the earlier novels somehow evolved (linguistically, that is) into the "plaz" of the later books by way of the natural drift of language over time. Just a thought.--172.190.16.197 (talk) 09:20, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Content from the Water of Life (Dune) article's talk page which now redirects to here

Spice essence

There seems to be some confusion here between the spice essence and the Water of Life. Some of this may be unavoidable as the books themselves are not completely internally consistent, even within the six original FH-written novels. (IIRC - haven't read them through in about 20 years.) I'll try to clear it up and if I'm off I'm sure some Dunian will correct me... Ellsworth 00:56, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Are they not the same thing? I'd love to analyze some quotations from the actual texts on this one. I'll look. TAnthony 01:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I've clarified the terms to some degree, though the article needs more work. — TAnthony^Talk 04:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Spice trance

The term "spice trance" is never attributed to Navigators in the original series (and it is only used in Children of Dune). Alia refers to it as a "navigation trance" in CoD:

Not without reason was the spice often called "the secret coinage." Without melange, the Spacing Guild's heighliners could not move. Melange precipitated the "navigation trance" by which a translight pathway could be "seen" before it was traveled. Without melange and its amplification of the human immunogenic system, life expectancy for the very rich degenerated by a factor of at least four. Even the vast middle class of the Imperium ate diluted melange in small sprinklings with at least one meal a day.

TAnthony 02:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Female ancestors. or ancestors in the female line?

It's an easy error, so it deserves discussion here, even if it's already correct in the article:

memories and personalities of their female ancestors.

I haven't tried to look it up, but if i were writing it, those memories would pass (in otherwise inaccessible form) from mother to daughter, but not from mother thru son to granddaughter. Perhaps a reference can be given on this talk page. The number of personalities (assuming n generations) is approximately 2n/2 as we have it written, and approximately n if what is intended is "ancestors in the female line".
--Jerzy•t 01:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello, no, it is not through the female line only. In Dune, all people carry genetic memories from their ancestors, male and female. However, Reverend Mothers are only able to directly access the memories of the females, because if they chose to access the male memories they would be overpowered and possesed by those male personas (much like happened to Alia). As such, female memories passed through a son would indeed continue to be passed down, only the Kwisatz Haderach can access those male memories. - I hope that answers your question? ATOE (talk) 23:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

TAnthony removes lemma

Please tell this user to do not remove lemmas. Thanks. 62.11.176.123 (talk) 04:08, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

The novel establishes that chukka is some kind of food but never explains what kind. Further, this glossary is for terms used in our articles that readers may wish to know more about, and many redirects lead here. An undescribed food that is mentioned twice in one chapter is not notable enough (it is too trivial to be mentioned in any plot summary) and no one is going to try to look it up. Thanks.— TAnthony^Talk 23:28, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Baliset

I suspect the baliset used in Dune: Part Two (2024) is also an altered chapman stick, specifically the NS model. I've shown it to other players who think the same, but haven't been able to find anything confirming it online.

This is very much not that important, but would be significant in media representation of the stick, so I'm leaving this here in case any confirmation ever pops up. Also posting to the Chapman Stick talk page Equirax (talk) 03:51, 9 March 2024 (UTC)