Talk:List of Polish–Ottoman wars

Class

Hello @Aszx5000, sorry to bother you, but may I know what I need to do to get this up to BL-class? The problem seems to be coverage and accuracy, although I don't understand how I could particularly make this better? Setergh (talk) 16:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

You could be there already. I am not fully familiar with the MH B-grading system. I would ask at the MH talk page and they should be able to do it for you? Great series of articles you are making, but I would think about using slightly lighter shades of primary colours and your colour might not show up correctly on all devices. Well done. Aszx5000 (talk) 17:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I'll be sure to ask the MH page then.

As for the colours, they're the recommend ones for people that are colourblind (as in, people who are colourblind will not have a problem with these colours), therefore I won't be changing the colours. And what do you mean my colour won't show up correctly on all devices? If this really is true, how do I fix it? Setergh (talk) 17:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Removal of 1497-1499 Moldavian campaign

Hello @Setergh, you removed the Moldavian campaign (1497–1499) from the article adn your reasoning was that it was part of a war. So was Jan Zamoyski's expedition to Moldavia and Potocki's expedition, why did you include them? Personally, I support including those expeditions since they could be considered as separate wars. You can't remove a similar expedition from the Ottomans just because it brings the stats of Polish victories down. In the article of the Moldavian campaign, you can see that it is considered a separate war (war of 1497-1499) which is part of the prolonged Polish–Ottoman War (1485–1503).

With this logic, you would remove, for example, the War of the First Coalition from the list of wars between France and Britain just because it part of the French Revolutionary Wars and Coalition Wars. Perast (talk) 17:59, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

What war are Jan Zamoyski's expedition to Moldavia and Stefan Potocki's raid part of exactly? Your campaign is part of the entire 1485-1503 war, these two are their own seperate wars (or well expedition/raid).

"With this logic, you would remove, for example, the War of the First Coalition from the list of wars between France and Britain just because it part of the French Revolutionary Wars and Coalition Wars."

No, I would not as those are a series of multiple wars, hence the word wars.

And I'm perfectly fine with you adding wars, but in this case you cannot seperate this campaign from the whole entire war it is part of. That's like me adding the Great Turkish War along with the 1683-1699 war. Setergh (talk) 18:06, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, however I just wanted to highlight that the Moldavian Magnate Wars are very messy and consisted of many separate events, so if you're going to include an article that has not been created (Potocki's raid), I suggest including all other separate small-scale conflicts of the Moldavian Magnate Wars which do not have an article. Otherwise, I would suggest removing Potocki's raid. Thanks. Perast (talk) 19:25, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I only added Stefan Potocki's raid because I was certain it existed and knew about its result.

Tomorrow I'll try and find out some information about the other ones as well, although I just personally don't know a single thing about them.

"Otherwise, I would suggest removing Potocki's raid."

This is just nonsense though, you can't just remove this raid because others aren't added, and well, you're always free to add them yourself. Setergh (talk) 19:30, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll research too. One I know is a failed raid of Potocki in 1612. I'll add this later if I can find a source. Perast (talk) 19:39, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

That failed raid in 1612 is just the Battle of Cornul lui Sas which is already on here. Setergh (talk) 19:41, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see. The Moldavian Magnate Wars article didn't mention that as far as I know, so I thought it was missing. Thanks for including it. Perast (talk) 19:45, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

It does, but for some reason it has the Polish name, Battle of Sasowy Róg. Setergh (talk) 19:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm trying my hardest to find the other raids, although I'll probably quit trying as there is not a single mention anywhere of the other Moldavian Magnate Wars. Setergh (talk) 16:03, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your attempt to look, I haven't researched yet but most likely will soon and will let you know if I find anything. Perast (talk) 16:03, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Alright, thanks!

Just wanted to note I only looked through books rather than random websites, just so I had an at least reliable source, which might be why I didn't find anything. Setergh (talk) 20:11, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Removal of the death of Wladyslaw III from Crusade of Varna box

Hello @Setergh, you removed the death of Wladyslaw III from the Crusade of Varna box. How exactly is this unnecessary information? It's a war between Poland and the Ottomans and the king was killed by the Ottomans. How is that not something that should be stated in an article about conflicts between Poland and Turkey? Seems like a WP:NOV issue to me at first glance. Perast (talk) 18:01, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I personally don't think it is worth mentioning things like this, although if you are going to then also add about Abaza Pasha in 1633-1634. My mistake though, I just didn't think it was worthy of mentioning. Setergh (talk) 18:04, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Well Abaza Pasha was not the ruler of the country during that war, he was a commander who was executed by the Sultan. In Varna, on the other hand, the King of Poland was killed. That is pretty major. Perast (talk) 18:09, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, yes, although they were the both the main leaders in the war, so I figured you might as well just add both? Setergh (talk) 18:11, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Sure, you can make that change. "Abhaz Pasha executed by the Sultan" in the 1633 war and in the Crusade of Varna box, "Wladyslaw III of Poland killed in action". Perast (talk) 18:17, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Yup, seems perfect to me. Setergh (talk) 18:21, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I read Abaza Mehmed Pasha's article in multiple languages (including English) and contemporary sources state that he was killed because he took bribes, not because of the Polish campaign

The 1633 war article states he was killed because of his role in the war, but it does not give a citation for that claim. I'm going to look into this further and add Abaza Pasha's execution accordingly if it really was due to the Polish campaign (though contemporary sources disagree). I will add Wladyslaw III's killing for now, as we agreed. Perast (talk) 19:12, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Go for it. Setergh (talk) 19:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 3 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to List of Polish–Ottoman wars - No support for the present title, some dispute over the target but a rough consensus that the shortest title is favoured by WP:CONCISE. Some precision issues as well but there are proposals to address this through editing of the article. No discussion for a week, so no point in a re-list. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 21:23, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

---

List of armed conflicts involving Poland against Turkey → List of Polish–Ottoman wars – All these wars involved the Ottoman Empire, not the modern Republic of Turkey. The main category is Category:Polish–Ottoman wars, while armed conflicts involved country A against country B does not follow established title conventions, and might have WP:POV issues. Per WP:TITLECON, it should be List of Polish–Ottoman wars. NLeeuw (talk) 14:39, 3 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 16:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

This move would result in the merging of Polish–Ottoman Wars and this page, right? Perast (talk) 15:31, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I hadn't actually considered that, but yes, that would make sense. Polish–Ottoman Wars is a disamb page now; it could be turned into a redirect to List of Polish–Ottoman wars once all the useful content of the former has been integrated into the latter. NLeeuw (talk) 16:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom

Kowal2701 (talk) 16:26, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, different suggestion

Personally, I don't think "List of Polish–Ottoman wars" fits this page very well. @Perast suggested on my talk page List of armed conflicts between Poland and Turkey, which I think could easily be changed to List of armed conflicts between Poland and Ottoman Empire, which is what I'd go with.

List of Polish–Ottoman wars wouldn't be a good name as well, there's also battles on here, which aren't wars.

"Polish–Ottoman Wars is a disamb page now; it could be turned into a redirect to List of Polish–Ottoman wars once all the useful content of the former has been integrated into the latter."

How should I do this though? The point of that page currently is just well, a very simple list of the conflicts between the two. This one's a lot more complex and bigger, so I don't particularly see how one could implement a simple part into it. Setergh (talk) 16:32, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I think it's okay to include battles in the Conflict column, and use Template:Collapsible list if it gets too long. I sometimes do that as well.

I could support List of Polish–Ottoman wars and battles if you really want "battles" explicitly included in the title. I do that occasionally when there are too many separate battles that the historic state in question was involved in, without necessarily being involved in the wider war. One example is List of wars and battles involving the Principality of Smolensk. What do you think about that? NLeeuw (talk) 17:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

PS: I think that including images inside a list like this was not allowed or not recommended somewhere, but I don't remember where (I'll try to find that convention). In any case, although the images are pretty, they take up a lot of space, and are one reason why this list is a lot more complex and bigger. NLeeuw (talk) 17:42, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

PPS: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aviation/Archive 14#List of aircraft of X Air Force/Military table formats, especially as related to images. There was no hard and fast rule, but many editors said that images like this in lists of military aircraft don't add much, but do take up a lot of space. But this list falls within WP:MILHIST, so this issue may not apply here. NLeeuw (talk) 17:46, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

About the images:

I honestly really just added them in hopes of the page possibly getting a higher class review. I had also added a lot of stuff afterwards when trying to get BL-class review (after a suggestion from a mod or whatever for milhist) but just got ignored and my thing deleted. Either way, I do not mind in the slightest if the images get deleted, I even agree that they're practically useless, but once again, I was just hoping for perhaps a better review on the page, not much else. Setergh (talk) 18:04, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

"List of Polish–Ottoman wars and battles" does seem a bit long, although if that's the only thing you'll agree on then you should probably go with that (although List of armed conflicts between Poland and Ottoman Empire is still what I'd go with).

Either way, I wouldn't mind your suggestion either, I'm just more keen on the other one as it also links well with other articles like this one. Setergh (talk) 18:02, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Option A: List of Polish–Ottoman wars

Option B: List of Polish–Ottoman wars and battles

Option C: List of armed conflicts between Poland and the Ottoman Empire

If we don't want a "long" name, then option A or B is clearly better than C. NLeeuw (talk) 20:04, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I don't mind the long name in this case as it still makes a lot of sense (and it isn't particularly a mouthful) while also following the name of other pages (although I must admit I made two other ones that are named like this one) Setergh (talk) 20:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Support either as proposed, or more preferably the alternative suggestion List of armed conflicts between Poland and the Ottoman Empire as both satisfy WP:PRECISION far better than the current title. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:48, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

If WP:PRECISION takes precedence over WP:CONCISE, may I suggest List of armed conflicts between the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Ottoman Empire instead? We're not talking about the current Third Polish Republic, but about the political union of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. NLeeuw (talk) 20:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Problem is WP:CONCISE is preferred over WP:PRECISION. Also, the Kingdom of Poland is included therefore your title wouldn't fully fit. Setergh (talk) 20:56, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Then once again my original proposal List of Polish–Ottoman wars turns out to be the best. NLeeuw (talk) 07:05, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

If anything, List of Polish-Ottoman conflicts is a better choice than your proposed. Setergh (talk) 07:21, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.