Talk:List of classical and art music traditions

Australian indigenous music

Is Australian indigenous music an art or classical tradition? --Kleinzach 02:19, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it's obviously a form of traditional/folk music not classical/art, so I will remove this. --Kleinzach 23:34, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Griot

I don't think griots are normally considered "classical" in this context. Wikipedia's own article on griots mentions them as being part of an oral tradition, which rather strongly implies folk rather than classical. There is court music from West African that could probably be considered classical, griots may be involved in that in some ways, but the griot tradition is not a formally taught school in which performers seek to emulate past masters.

Also it's ridiculous that Wikipedia doesn't have an article on "classical music" in the general musicological sense. What's up with that? I'm sure there was at one point. I remember working on it. Apparently it has been redirected to this inaccurate, incomplete and unsourced list that contains virtually no info on anything. Way to go... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.195.84.65 (talk) 13:23, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

It is very interresting idea. Problem is, that in the western country, classical music is understood mainly, as a Western classical music. But, I disagree with those classifications. I think, that term Art music is good for every point of It. Cassa342 (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2021 (UTC) Hello again. Now I maybe understand, why Griot was removed. Althought Griots are of high class in Mandinka society, It is still traditional music (or Folk music). I know, that players of drums (for example Djembe) are part of lower class, than Griots. Maybe due to this was this genre added and also removed. I don't know, if It is true. Please, explain It to Me. Thank You again. Cassa342 (talk) 10:33, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Arabic classical music

How about adding Arabic classical music? Or any objections, if I go ahead to add it? Munfarid1 (talk) 13:33, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Your idea is good, but It isn't andalusian classical music? What You have thought by term Arabic classical music? Because I know only about Andalusian classical music, althought I am not sure, if Iraqi Maqam can be also classified in this category too. Cassa342 (talk) 22:49, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Why Chinese traditional music was removed

I have a question. Why You have removed Chinese traditional music from this article? Isn't It art music tradition? I just asked It, because I want to be sure. Thank You. Cassa342 (talk) 22:38, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

@YellowJelly, I have seen the edits that you have made, and while I'm not sure I agree with all of them, I think they are acceptable. The real problem, however, rests in a point of classification. What is 'art music' and since lists on Wikipedia are not exhaustive, what should we include?

My idea was that the inclusion criteria should be: That the tradition should be consistently called art music both in the article and in sources, and that the articles concerning the music traditions should be well developed enough.

Here, for me at least, Mugham and Griot fail Criteria 1, and Phiphat/Piphat fail Criteria 2. If you have another criteria that you think would serve the reader experience better, I am open to ideas. Uness232 (talk) 19:01, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Art music is difficult to define, but it can generally be seen as the music developed for the upper classes in complex civilizations, with such complex civilizations helping develop many key (but not inherent) characteristics of classical music, such as systematized knowledge (music theory), writting (sheet music), division of labor (professional performers and composers, which also paves the way for non-anonymous composers), wealth accumulation (patronage), urban, and so on, which helps differentiate those from folk music (which opposes the previous characteristics that, again, are a direct consequence of complex civilizations).

Given the fact that the number of classical music traditions are very limited, I don't think it would be a problem being exhaustive here, especially considering the fact that plenty of those don't even have a Wikipedia article for being merged with music from a region as a whole (like Persian Music), or are just simply not here (like Baganda Royal Music). Having the broadest consistent musical tradition would be best however (so there is no need to add Baroque Music when we already have Western Classical Music, which includes it). Though maybe this could be helped if we wrote an article about Middle Eastern Classical Music or Southeast Asian Classical Music, for example. Regardless of all this, the number of entries in this list is pretty small, I would say, and given how those traditions are all housed under a sub-category means it shouldn't be a problem for readers either (quite the opposite).

There is a problem with these traditions being called "art" or "classical" music consistently, as a lot of sources refer to those as "traditional" (even though that's not a well-defined term in musicology) or "folk" (because it's not "classical" as in "western classical"). The mugham example is a clear case of this misunderstanding. A clear example of this are sites such as https://www.azerbaijans.com/content_296_en.html which describe Mugham as art music but place it under the folk music category while only including western classical azeri composers under the classical music of Azerbaijan (even though it also claims Mugham is azeri classical music). This other site (https://azerbaijan.az/en/related-information/39) refers to Mugham as "folk art music", which doesn't really make sense if we use the accepted definitions of both folk and classical music. It seems like some sources use the term "folk music" to mean "people's music" and "classical music" to mean "western classical music". Because of this, we do need to be critical of some sources.

Let me know what you think! --YellowJelly (talk) 19:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

I definitely see (and know, from experience, as someone who has rewritten Ottoman music) what you mean. Please do not get me wrong, I tried to follow WP criteria on the reliance of sourcing as closely as possible, so while I do believe that Mugham is art music, I was trying to strictly "systematize" (for lack of a better term) this article, and that seems to be impossible, as you pointed out quite cogently. I do not have the motivation to continue working on this article, but I'm happy to see a competent editor working on it. Thanks! Uness232 (talk) 23:15, 19 January 2022 (UTC)